[UPDATED] CIG and Patch update philosophy

  • Beer

    Posts: 4687

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    The fact that I am agreeing with you again Beer says that CIG should probably pay attention. I don't agree often with Goons. This is the same thing we were telling them 2 , 4 , 6 , and 9 months ago.

    I have confidence that, eventually, they will learn. That or they'll make PGI and MWO look like a masterpiece of gameplay development.
    GOONS RUIN EVERYTHING
  • Skupples

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    actually, 200,000 people with access to MP = 75% of the actual playerbase. There are not 500,000 unique humans running around. Not eevn close.

    My #1 issue, is that CiG is obviously way tooooo focused on the noise makers of this community. Why do I say this? Because ( I hate to say it) but a very small, very loud group of people are the ones always demanding updates every 24 hours, or they proclaim that the sky has fallen, and it seems ciG is attempting to appease these people.

    Appeasement of the minority is how you kill your games.

    Just get it done, AND TELL PEOPLE SOON AND TO SUCK IT UP.
    How to sum up the Concern Sub Forum in one sentence. (clears throat)

    ME ME ME, GIMI GIMI GIMI, NOW NOW NOW.
  • qLu

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    I think a lot of people do not get this "game development" thing ...

    We have the opportunity to follow the devs very closely at what they are doing here and *OF COURSE* any time estimate will always be given with the rather obvious limitation of "if there isn't another bug/issue that delays it further".

    Did any of you complainers ever do software debugging? It's not something that you even can estimate with perfect accuracy.

    I thought that was kinda obvious to anyone involved and especially to people who would back an unfinished software project.

    If everything had gone as planned we'd already have 12.5 on our computer, but guess what? It didn't (DOH!)

    So why is everyone acting like spoiled/entitled children again over a couple of days? At least have the decency and be ashamed of yourself ... if you can manage to drop the righteous indignation act for a minute. lol.


    Once again, timing of the release of the patch is not the issue, please read the original post.
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  • AntJ

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    This reminds me of a little phrase I would always write into my funding applications: "...has a history of successful project management and delivery on time, within budget, and to specification." They love that one.

    An interesting facet of managing fundraising is that you not only want to be able to still say that line after you have delivered, but you want to build up a lot of hype and keep momentum going for long enough to get you going (kind of like building up speed on the runway before you reach the end). This is especially applicable to biotech. Most drugs cost companies hundreds of millions to get to market. You start out usually with a couple of papers showing a convincing cell experiment that in reality in NO WAY guarantees the thing will work in humans - but you have a pretty good hunch. To raise the hundreds of millions, you need to convince people it is going somewhere and keep showing progress, communicating well, and reaching milestones on time, as you laid out in your plan. Every time you push things back there is an almost audible hiss from the stakeholders.

    The thing is, in that sort of pharma, you are still fundraising during this next 10 or so years of development. If you slow down, you have a good chance of going into the dreaded "death spiral". You stop making progress as planned/slow down and then you find it hard to attract new investors. Because you're not attracting new investors, you slow down even more. You get to the point where you have enough cash on hand to keep plodding along but new investors look at your.

    Fortunately star citizen seems to have raised enough though that I don't see them going into a death spiral any time soon *fingers crossed*
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  • alienwar

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    actually, 200,000 people with access to MP = 75% of the actual playerbase.

    a very small, very loud group of people are the ones always demanding updates every 24 hours, or they proclaim that the sky has fallen,

    Are you sure its not 74% or 76%? Are you really THAT sure? ;)
    ^^^ joking btw


    Hopefully what the OP and this thread is attempting to accomplish is to separate the "update every 24 hrs" from the real, meaningful suggestion that consistency and care in communication is what CIG should do.

    Someone suggested "coming next week" instead of "coming early next week". OP suggested that once a time-frame (even one that isn't a "hard" set time) is nearing expiration, that CIG provide an (short) update on why it will pass before it passes, simply to keep settled minds settled.

    My suggestion is that it is a chronic issue that goes far beyond time frames and deadlines, and that CIG needs to look into adding a PR filter to all their outgoing and permanent communication with the outside world (updates and static website). Again, my suggestion isn't "oh no, CIG is failing at everything", but rather a semi-easy fix to many of their perceived problems (and actual minor snafus) that pays itself off greatly.

    I think the OP and I are on the same page here, and hopefully you can see the value to this viewpoint.
  • RedPrime

    Posts: 3478

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    qLu | qLu said:
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    This now concludes our lesson on Project Management 101

    Ok, serious time. I find it basically pathetic that none of the people arguing for or against in this thread, or any other thread have brought this up. It just goes to show how little / any / no experience you people, YES YOU PEOPLE... have with project management.

    Grab a chair, a different video game, & ignore anything Ben says about prospective release dates. He is not giving an official info release. He is simply giving his own pesronal expectations, which are wrong 99% of the time, no offense.

    This is another example of someone who either hasn't read the OP or is creating a straw man argument. All of those images address time, quality and scope...none of which this thread is actually about.

    Instead of addressing the real issue - a new "fake" issue is created from thin air and then the author feels as if he has defeated OP if he has instead defeated the "fake" issue.
    I think it may be more accurate to say that Skupples engaged in parody with this post, but you, qLu, are too serious to notice it.
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  • Triage

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    So lets see what around the Verse will tell us about the patch...
  • Skupples

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    qLu | qLu said:
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    This now concludes our lesson on Project Management 101

    Ok, serious time. I find it basically pathetic that none of the people arguing for or against in this thread, or any other thread have brought this up. It just goes to show how little / any / no experience you people, YES YOU PEOPLE... have with project management.

    Grab a chair, a different video game, & ignore anything Ben says about prospective release dates. He is not giving an official info release. He is simply giving his own pesronal expectations, which are wrong 99% of the time, no offense.

    This is another example of someone who either hasn't read the OP or is creating a straw man argument. All of those images address time, quality and scope...none of which this thread is actually about.

    Instead of addressing the real issue - a new "fake" issue is created from thin air and then the author feels as if he has defeated OP if he has instead defeated the "fake" issue.
    I think it may be more accurate to say that Skupples engaged in parody with this post, but you, qLu, are too serious to notice it.
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    actually, 200,000 people with access to MP = 75% of the actual playerbase.

    a very small, very loud group of people are the ones always demanding updates every 24 hours, or they proclaim that the sky has fallen,

    Are you sure its not 74% or 76%? Are you really THAT sure? ;)
    ^^^ joking btw


    Hopefully what the OP and this thread is attempting to accomplish is to separate the "update every 24 hrs" from the real, meaningful suggestion that consistency and care in communication is what CIG should do.

    Someone suggested "coming next week" instead of "coming early next week". OP suggested that once a time-frame (even one that isn't a "hard" set time) is nearing expiration, that CIG provide an (short) update on why it will pass before it passes, simply to keep settled minds settled.

    My suggestion is that it is a chronic issue that goes far beyond time frames and deadlines, and that CIG needs to look into adding a PR filter to all their outgoing and permanent communication with the outside world (updates and static website). Again, my suggestion isn't "oh no, CIG is failing at everything", but rather a semi-easy fix to many of their perceived problems (and actual minor snafus) that pays itself off greatly.

    I think the OP and I are on the same page here, and hopefully you can see the value to this viewpoint.


    CiG simply needs to keep their mouth shut until it is in the deployment system & ready to fire. Separating "this week" and "early this week" is a game in semantics that no one will win. People will still hear it as "Monday @ 12:01AM PST"

    so, best solution is to simply get Ben to shutup with his NEVER EVEN CLOSE to being right on release date statements & only informing people as to WHEN it is coming ONCE it is in the deployment terminal. What ever happened to a good old fashioned SOOOOOOOOOON.
    How to sum up the Concern Sub Forum in one sentence. (clears throat)

    ME ME ME, GIMI GIMI GIMI, NOW NOW NOW.
  • cosmicdwarf

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    I still think that, for now, the best timeframe they can give when they are in a situation like this is soon with weekly updates on progress.
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  • Srewolf

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    .
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  • Srewolf

    Posts: 802

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    actually, 200,000 people with access to MP = 75% of the actual playerbase. There are not 500,000 unique humans running around. Not eevn close.

    My #1 issue, is that CiG is obviously way tooooo focused on the noise makers of this community. Why do I say this? Because ( I hate to say it) but a very small, very loud group of people are the ones always demanding updates every 24 hours, or they proclaim that the sky has fallen, and it seems ciG is attempting to appease these people.

    Appeasement of the minority is how you kill your games.

    Just get it done, AND TELL PEOPLE SOON AND TO SUCK IT UP.


    Thats exactly right, and I've seen it happen a lot over the years.
    Gamers today have this sense of entitlement that I cant understand.

    Absolutly NOTHING good will come from giving in to these ppl. They will never be happy, and always ask for more, or claim the Devs are doing it wrong. I know this for fact, as I've been doing this since Tribes: Starsiege.

    .... drama...drama...drama....
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  • Tiger-Heart

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    I think we are seeing one of the biggest over-reactions to a content update in the history of this game, tbh.

    The Arena Commander reactions were warranted, based on a company that had people being stringed along for 7 months (hell, most of the complainers hadn't even been backers for 7 months by the time AC hit)

    BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT.

    None of that has happened here. They have been extremely hush hush with expected release time frames for this patch. The only snippit we had was from Ben. He said HE HOPES IT WILL RELEASE MONDAY( 3 weeks ago now I believe) which is A MAJOR MISTAKE. Ben needs to learn how the community will react to his expectations. They take his word as that of GOD, even though he isn't even on the developing end of the game. Besides that, they never once stated it would be out yesterday, or TODAY. Go read the last update we received, they HOPE to get it out THIS WEEK.

    ffs people. Go play something else. The "lets pretend CiG is screwing us" game is getting really fucking old.


    I recommend Divinity: Original Sin. Its great.
    I second this recommendation! D:oS is a really great game indeed. Turn based combat RPG goodness! :)

    Available on Steam and at GoG.com for cheap...$39.99! Well worth it! :)

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  • Stadulator

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    lol how many times has the OP been edited? Seems like once a day or more
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  • wcloaf

    Developer

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    Hey guys! Patch update - we're still pushing for a release tonight. It's in Austin QA's hands at the moment, but seems to be looking good. I will let you know if something unexpected happens.
  • DustyLens

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    lol how many times has the OP been edited? Seems like once a day or more

    Do you mean the original post in this thread or the original projection of 12.5s rollout?

    Just for clarity.
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  • droptuned

    Posts: 2503

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    Srewolf_the_Bold:
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    Gamers today have this sense of entitlement that I cant understand.

    Not to mention they love to try and elevate themselves above others for having different opinions. In fact they do whatever they can to go after the person instead of the topic at hand. Sometimes they have no logical argument so instead they'll just throw out "entitled" or some other logical fallacy.



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  • cosmicdwarf

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    Hey guys! Patch update - we're still pushing for a release tonight. It's in Austin QA's hands at the moment, but seems to be looking good. I will let you know if something unexpected happens.

    Awesome.
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  • DrKlu

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    Hey guys! Patch update - we're still pushing for a release tonight. It's in Austin QA's hands at the moment, but seems to be looking good. I will let you know if something unexpected happens.

    Thanks for the update.
    Please tick the box that most represents your jimmies at the time of posting:[ ] Rustled: [ ] Un-rustled
  • Brasidas

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    @wcloaf ........ you're my hero buddy!
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  • Grimstein

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    I agree with the OP. Ben could easily drop a post. "no patch today, I will explain tomorrow"

    Ben did drop a post, several in fact.

    Toast dropped a few as well.

    I could give you some advice, but it would only get me in trouble
    If he did today I missed it. Go ahead and give me the advice I sure you are full of pearls of wisdom.

    Devs,

    Paper OP, scissors fine.

    Rock,
  • Brasidas

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    Srewolf_the_Bold:
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    I agree with the OP. Ben could easily drop a post. "no patch today, I will explain tomorrow"

    Ben did drop a post, several in fact.

    Toast dropped a few as well.

    I could give you some advice, but it would only get me in trouble
    If he did today I missed it. Go ahead and give me the advice I sure you are full of pearls of wisdom.

    scroll up... like ten lines lol
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  • Fundred

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    thanks a lot and thanks for letting us know if something happens :D
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  • DustyLens

    Posts: 5062

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    Hey guys! Patch update - we're still pushing for a release tonight. It's in Austin QA's hands at the moment, but seems to be looking good. I will let you know if something unexpected happens.

    I hope that leaves enough days in the week for QA to watch streams of people playing.
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  • Srewolf

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    Srewolf_the_Bold:
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    I agree with the OP. Ben could easily drop a post. "no patch today, I will explain tomorrow"

    Ben did drop a post, several in fact.

    Toast dropped a few as well.

    I could give you some advice, but it would only get me in trouble
    If he did today I missed it. Go ahead and give me the advice I sure you are full of pearls of wisdom.


    Your Avatar is awsome!
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  • Brasidas

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    okay... now that i finished my customary happy dance that occurs post any and all Ben Lesnick posts... time to re-temper my enthusiasm.
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  • Toast

    Moderator

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    All right - Ben just left a note, so play nice please. At least pretend to be friends unless and until it's clear that 12.5 is or is not coming out.

    We're getting into pre-Arena Commander launch levels of nastiness going back and forth in here, and if you're upset about the communication policy, go ahead and keep talking, but any more shots in either direction - whether it's against the "communication is not good enough" side or the "communication is good enough side" will likely be met with probation.

    Just getting way, way too nasty in here.
    Anything that I post as a moderator will appear in purple or orange. Otherwise, I'm posting as a backer, like you. I'm not part of the ship stats team, so I don't have answers to those!
  • Tiger-Heart

    Posts: 6424

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    All right - Ben just left a note, so play nice please. At least pretend to be friends unless and until it's clear that 12.5 is or is not coming out.

    We're getting into pre-Arena Commander launch levels of nastiness going back and forth in here, and if you're upset about the communication policy, go ahead and keep talking, but any more shots in either direction - whether it's against the "communication is not good enough" side or the "communication is good enough side" will likely be met with probation.

    Just getting way, way too nasty in here.

    I never post any nasty comments, no point in it what so ever... :)

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  • DoublarThackery

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    Hey guys! Patch update - we're still pushing for a release tonight. It's in Austin QA's hands at the moment, but seems to be looking good. I will let you know if something unexpected happens.

    Fingers crossed! And if it doesn't get released because of an issue, that's okay. Seriously.
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  • cosmicdwarf

    Posts: 3589

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    All right - Ben just left a note, so play nice please. At least pretend to be friends unless and until it's clear that 12.5 is or is not coming out.

    We're getting into pre-Arena Commander launch levels of nastiness going back and forth in here, and if you're upset about the communication policy, go ahead and keep talking, but any more shots in either direction - whether it's against the "communication is not good enough" side or the "communication is good enough side" will likely be met with probation.

    Just getting way, way too nasty in here.

    Can we still pretend to be friends even if it doesn't come out?
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  • Toast

    Moderator

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    Garotar:
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    [hide]

    All right - Ben just left a note, so play nice please. At least pretend to be friends unless and until it's clear that 12.5 is or is not coming out.

    We're getting into pre-Arena Commander launch levels of nastiness going back and forth in here, and if you're upset about the communication policy, go ahead and keep talking, but any more shots in either direction - whether it's against the "communication is not good enough" side or the "communication is good enough side" will likely be met with probation.

    Just getting way, way too nasty in here.

    Can we still pretend to be friends even if it doesn't come out?
    You can, I won't tell! ;)
    Anything that I post as a moderator will appear in purple or orange. Otherwise, I'm posting as a backer, like you. I'm not part of the ship stats team, so I don't have answers to those!
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