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Related Discussions
Sry for starting another 'Mantle' thread but these fresh news will change gaming for everyone.
source:
http://wccftech.com/ (link below)
source:
http://wccftech.com/ (link below)
It seems that you do not need an AMD GCN enabled graphic card to make mantle work, apparently, Mantle will work just as well with Nvidia Graphic Cards. Wow, talk about good PR. AMD has already proved with Tress FX that if you have got a killer app, its better to not make it proprietary.
Hurray for AMD that did not choose the Nvidia path of making software features exclusive for its own cards.Of course heres the thing we are not sure about. Mantle was clearly designed with GCN in mind, so when AMD talks about other vendors being able to utilize Mantle does that mean that Mantle will work on their current Architecture? Or will the actual architecture of rival vendors (Nvidia) be need to be modified to support Mantle? If its the later then this is a very subtle move from AMD’s side pushing towards a Red Future. Another thing we dont understand is what was up with all the apparent hints that Mantle will be GCN only. Unless AMD suddenly decided to make Mantle, Multi-Vendor (Unlikely) AMD had been planning this all along yet all information previously pointed towards a GCN Only Mantle API.
Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-mantle-api-require-gcn-work-nvidia-graphic-cards/#ixzz2ke7GbC1N
Gaming CPU Hierarchy List 2014 (May Update) -> https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/21660/gaming-cpu-hierarchy-list-2013/p1
Posts: 4350
On ProbationEdited: by IceyJones
Edited:
and your conclusion is false so far. it MIGHT be possible to use mantle also on nvidia cards, but ATM it is NOT possible, as nvidia has no driver for the mantle API.
and btw:
mantle would make the maxwell-development obsolete. goal of maxwell is to reduce cpu-load also by taking over its load with a co-processor. to go with mantle would be a huge step back for nvidia imho, and i doubt they will do that as it is aimed at DX/d3d performance
Posts: 1053
Posts: 5203
Edited: by CynicalCyanide
Edited:
I agree that a hardware solution, if it were cheap to implement and resulting in equal performance boosts, would be far superior to having a 2nd API to program for each game. Or for the API to become unusable/unoptimised for older/newer generations of cards. The drawback in that case of course is that Kepler users will be screwed.
Anyway, just because AMD says it's all multi vendor doesn't mean that it wouldn't take significant hardware modifications or re-writing more than half of the API to suit Nvidia's current arches. It may just be completely impractical for Nvidia to get to work on writing up their own modification of Mantle to work on their own current cards, and it may be the case that the hardware changes to their next generation of cards renders most of the benefits of Mantle moot anyway.
It certainly makes good PR either way though. AMD could hypothetically advertise their Hardware is Multi-OS, because if someone were to compile their own fully functional AMD drivers from scratch with nothing but a windows .exe to backwards engineer from - It would technically work. And most people (even websites) wouldn't be tech literate enough to call them out on it. Mantle being Multi-Archecture could work out similarly.
And this is a good point too "Unless AMD suddenly decided to make Mantle, Multi-Vendor (Unlikely) AMD had been planning this all along yet all information previously pointed towards a GCN Only Mantle API."
- What the fuck were AMD playing at here? When they sway back and forth like this, it tells me that there's something fishy going on. Maybe they only recently realised people would buy into good PR if they made it out like it was super open for everyone, even if they didn't say so in the first place because it was technically infeasible.
PS: It's not bloody confirmed! ... First of all, Nvidia have to want to implement it - so even if it's perfectly technically feasible, it's not confirmed that it will work. A better title would be "AMD officially claims Mantle to be Multi-Vendor compatible".
Posts: 394
To be honest AMD have played about with 3D and their results were almost pathetic. AMD sponsored games almost deliberately make the title almost unusable for NVidia 3D with very few exceptions. I have no idea why they do this, because they really don't care about 3D, and they rely on Tridef, which is a terrible solution compared to the driver support by NVidia.
PhysX speaks for itself. A lot of users aren't excited by it, lots of AMD users love to pour bile on it whenever it's mentioned, and some of us like it when its there, and don't really care when its not.
Then there is G-sync. No idea what AMD will release to compete with it, but the tech looks like it solves a big problem for lots of gamers. Most of us with 120hz monitors don't suffer tearing most of the time anyway, but at least that's not the only viable solution now.
IMO NVidia have done more to add features to gaming whilst AMD have offered value for money. I'm not surprised AMD are starting a PR war to take some moral high-ground.
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Furthermore if Nvidia wants Mantle than they not only have to write the re-write half the API, they have to IMPLEMENT all of it on their own. They most certainly can do this if they want, they most likely do not want to. AMD is not going to write mantle drivers for nvidia, amd most certainly has not deep enough knowledge of keppler to do this anyway.
No one could give me a good source how a little, weak ARM-CPU should solve the draw call overhead of D3D. But this is not even the main issue with mantle, check out the APU13 keynotes an mantle. Mantle brings so much more to the table.
I doubt that AMD cares if nvidia adopts mantle or not, they seem to aim at qualcomm and the other members of the HSA-Foundation. There was more than just a hint that Mantle should bring great performance improvements for mobile devices.
Posts: 5203
Edited: by CynicalCyanide
Edited:
No. Firstly AMD flip-flopped and were quite ambigeous about what they said on this matter, but I'll let the article sum it up for me again: "all information previously pointed towards a GCN Only Mantle API" No one is saying that AMD should do that. I'm saying that it's unreasonable to shout out to everyone and proclaim that it's something that works on multiple platforms. It's like saying that a car works on multiple fuels (if someone strips out the entire engine block, fuel related systems etc and replaces it). It's good PR because 99% of people won't see through it, but if this is the case, then it's only barely, by a technicality even the truth. No one has given you a source because there's no source to give yet. It's a concept. Just like there was no source to give earlier on when people were demanding to know what FPS benefit Mantle would give. The concept though is quite simple, if DX has such ridiculous overheads and inefficiencies stemming from poor communications between the CPU and the GPU (which influences the amount of draw calls, for instance), then having a CPU on-card could potentially eliminate the need for much of the CPU workload and communication as it could all be done on-card. The CPU wouldn't need to be powerful if it's more efficient - case in point that Mantle seems to reduce CPU usage heavily - well between the on-board CPU and the actual CPU, it could have the same effect roughly. The benefit would be Mantle-Like, but compatible with all DX 11 based games, and likely future versions of DX too, rather than needing the API re-written for each game.
If you think that AMD doesn't care whether Nvidia adopts Mantle, you're dreaming. The GPU side of things is by far their biggest cash cow, and even if they're eying up other markets, the last thing they want is for the competition to receive their biggest competitive advantage as a gift on a silver platter (unless they can leverage that advantage better, and they need Nvidia to adopt it too so they can exploit that advantage more often), and likewise they don't want to ignore the opportunity to flip the market share % either. Again: I can't make it more clear - AMD do care very much what Nvidia does, and a big part of why they've changed their stance on Mantle's ability to be adapted to other arches could be their competitive strategy against Nvidia shifting.
Posts: 1053
Edited: by TheTempest
Edited:
same goes for 3d vision from nivida. for 3d vision u need a extra 3d vision monitor with the hole nivida package. AMD is useing AMD HD3D where u can choose from different shutter glasses and different 3d monitor brands. AMDs approach was more software based while if u wanted too use 3d with a nivida graphic card u where bound to the nivida branded products.
for g-sync i guess that AMD will come up again with some kind of software solution where u dont have to buy again new hardware.
i can add here that i have seen a tweet or a facebook coment that AMD is gonna say something soon about g-sync.
nvidia adds more features for gameing for there own graphic cards. they do it too make everyone thing that they are the only one that can provide these features while in real there are other more open approaches that would benefit gameing for everyone. i mean they also take DX11 features like tesselation and show them off like they are only possible on there own cards. the worste part is there are always some guys that believe this. alien versus predator was the first game that used tesselation and it was a gameing evolved title.
nvidia did a good job that everyone believes that this closed feature approach is the right one for gameing. every industrie makes more money when they can bind ppl to there products. look at apple. best way to bind customers is the emotional way. then u can sell everything even when there are cheaper and/or better products out there.
while amd did all the open standard marketing for years it looks like they also wanne go now the "closed" road aswell. i dont even know why AMD opend tressfx for nvidia. seriously i would try to push closed standards for my GPU brand for years now. on a marketing point of view nvidia is doing it perfect. it always felt like AMD is trying to be the "nice guy". buisness is war. perhaps with the big console deal in there pocket they have now the balls to push there closed standards aswell.
Posts: 4782
Edited: by SE_Apocalypse
Edited:
Qualcomm at the other hand is bigger than AMD btw and already a technology partner, just like ARM, Samsung, Ti, etc
And again AMD NEVER CHANGED their stance, just because you found something quote in a forum from an accessory sentence in a small article of a little news site in the internet does not make it true.
I am arguing since ages in this forum that AMD always said 'open API' and this always meant it can be implement by any vendor if they like. Now we have a even more clear statement on this, we get even about a dozen hints on the mobile market and people really wonder?
If you don´t believe me, watch the mantle announcement. 'open API', 'available on all GCN-GPUs' that is what they said.
edit: Oh, btw here some random news on the newest ARMv8 GCN-Mantle Soc
http://liliputing.com/2013/09/amds-first-arm-based-chip-tablets-coming-2014.html
Getting mantle for my next tablet, I am so excited ;-)
Posts: 5203
Edited: by CynicalCyanide
Edited:
And here's what Robert Hallock "PR for Radeon & Gaming @ AMD" - Said on Twitter: "@GnrlKhalid [Mantle] is an API for the industry-standard GCN Architecture and its specific ISA [Instruction Set Architecture], done at the request of game developers."
https://twitter.com/Thracks/status/383872285351739393
Look, I'm not going to bother arguing further, but just about every single professional IT site basically started this whole show by saying "MANTLE OPEN FOR NVIDIA?" then "MANTLE FOR AMD ONLY" and now "MANTLE OPEN FOR NVIDIA?" all over again. Maybe by the end of the year we'll have "MANTLE FOR AMD ONLY" again!
Posts: 1053
Edited: by TheTempest
Edited:
but mantle itself is open to any other GPU architecture. so when mantle is all grown up and AMD release a SDK everyone could make a mantle driver for another GPU architecture?! so in the end mantle is open and not bound to AMD GPUs. but at the moment its only for GCN.....correct me if i am wrong here.
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Edited: by CynicalCyanide
Edited:
"Everyone at first assumed Open source, but that's of course BS."
I just said that this interpretation was, and is, bullshit. But there are different degrees of 'Open', obviously with Open Source being the extreme of that. How much and how easily the API can be bent towards new arches, whether that's governed by technical or legal issues, is not conveyed precisely just by saying "Oh, it's an Open API.". And it's questions like that which will determine whether it's reasonable for Nvidia to adopt, or not. Saying "It's Open" is a nice way to get people hyped for it, even if it actually requires 90% of the effort to use Mantle on Nvidia cards, as it would just creating a new API from scratch.
Posts: 4782
Edited: by SE_Apocalypse
Edited:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface#APIs_and_copyrights
Posts: 2264
Posts: 468
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On Probationamd starts secret mantle development in order to counter this with another route, by breaking the game-standards of d3d
amd waits until maxwell development is proceeded so much, that nvidia will not be able the change course
amd reveals mantle
Mantle = GCN-compatible only.....nvidia does not have GCN and would need to develop from scratch with the generation after maxwell, leaving the field to amd for the next 5 years!
it´s a war. and amd´s claims, that they are soooooo nice to develop an open API is so much BS! it is pure PR, nothing more. and the whole amd-fanboys can say afterwards, that amd offered the api to nvidia.....lol
it already started....
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Posts: 4782
I will be happy using most likely mantle on my tablet. ;-)
Posts: 25
OH NOES, that "other", obviously inferior GPU company is doing something competently! Quick, come up with a large collection of unsourced "facts" and conspiracies to rationalize it all away, before it's too late!
Posts: 50
Edited: by Tup3x
Edited:
Anyway, it looks like AMD really wants to make this new standard. I hope that NVIDIA and AMD wouldn't be childish this time and just work together for once to push this. Mantle is not tied to GCN, they said it pretty clearly and it will be forward compatible with different architectures.
Posts: 21
Thankfully AMD are around to keep Nvidia and Intel on there toes, if it wasn't for AMD, could you imaging how bad Nvidia and Intel would be without AMD?, prices would keep creeping up, progress would likely go down the pan and the PC market would likely die out unless more competition got into the market, it would be nice if we had a few more CPU and GPU companies competing like the good old days.
Also, I've never understood why anyone would have loyalty to any one company, it's them that end up paying a higher price, in the end, my next upgrade will like be a Intel CPU and GPU from AMD, I would like to get a CPU from AMD as well but for now they don't cut it, but for the GPU, the R9-290 seems to be by far one of the best cards you can get for it's price and performance, well at least when the after market coolers come out.
It would be great if Mantal and G-sync would work on all new cards but Nvidia are not very open, thing is, both standards would get wide adoption if Intel, AMD and Nvidia could use it, wouldn't supprise me if AMD come up with a open standard G-Sync that works on all cards in the near future.
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Edited: by Catamount
Edited:
I think Mantle has potential, but it's going to need to gain broad support to really take off. AMD has nothing to gain by trying to "screw" Nvidia here; they'll be hard pressed to get Mantle to meaningfully supplant DX even with support from both manufacturers.
Posts: 450
What they were saying wasn't untrue, at this time Mantle is only used by GCN cards, but they never said it would always be that way, and I vaguely remember reading that they had some kind of plan to keep it to themselves for about a year before "opening" it up. There wasn't much detail as I recall but that was the jist of it. AMD is being pretty closed mouthed about Mantle and I'm sure that there's a reason for it. MS is an obvious posibility as I'm sure that they aren't happy about Mantle at all, since it provides a way to bypass DX and Windows, no longer guaranteeing that gaming will be a Windows thing.
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Edited: by Ralgon
Edited:
Edit: i'd also suggest you could practically forget sli support in any sort of beneficial form
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On Probationbut nice to see, how true AMD-fanboys react to defend their holy company. it must not be, that amd is also only a fighting company like ALL other companies around the world......
and i´m eager to see, when we face a similar patent war like in the smartphone-business
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https://twitter.com/Thracks/status/383872285351739393
Because this one does not state that it would work only with GCN. SLI with Mantle should btw scale and perform much better, at least if properly implemented.
Posts: 1778
He didnt say FPS, thats a ridiculous strawman argument..... The goal isn't FPS that the boost in GPU gives but the fact you can do so much more and keep your FPS up....Those of us that have been gaming since the beginning know what extra GPU power means...
Posts: 31
Edited: by Big-Daddy
Edited:
Mantle is a good thing and is being pitched as a game changer because it actually is...... if the developers get behind it, (which they appear to be) if the mobile compute market gets behind it (hmm I wonder who's pitching to dominate that space?) and if the console market are forced to adopt it, (ohhh I wonder who OWNS the console market for the next 5 years?) I wonder if MS and Apple will adopt it? I guess if they want to stay relevant in a new world where mobile and console gaming is king... then yes I cant see how they could refuse.
AMD have been smart and shouldnt be under-estimated. I love my current Nvidia setup and I love what Nvidia have achieved but it seems that AMD have blind-sided them with this and taken advantage of their position in the console market and their plans for the mobile compute market... cant blame em for that. No doubt Nvidia, Intel and MS will try counter some how. Its all good and not worth taking sides over. It may go nowhere (highly unlikely) or at least force a better way forward with some alternative from Nvidia/Intel/MS that puts DX out to pasture. Open GL had its day in the sun, maybe DX days are over.. the change from DX 9 to 10 was a disaster for MS with most developers skipping DX10 and going straight to 11.
I think the timing is right for this kind of industry change, the planets have aligned for AMD on this one but I wont discount what else could be put forward. Beta Max lost after all. Good luck AMD you have my support.
From a 2010 article @ http://hothardware.com/Reviews/The-State-of-DirectX-11/?page=14
"A few years ago, we discussed the state of DirectX 10 and came back unimpressed. Not only did the available games of the time perform poorly under DirectX 10 on available hardware, image quality gains were nearly non-existent. Switching from DirectX 9 to DirectX 10 dropped performance by half with almost no discernible image quality improvement. Most of the DirectX 10 image quality perks we spotted in the games we checked out were due to specific developer decisions and had little to do with the new API. Now, nearly three years later, we're sorting through yet another mountain of data for yet another new DirectX API iteration, the 11th in the series. Thankfully things are looking up this time around."
DX11 has also had a slower uptake than MS would have liked too so it may have to accept defeat on this one. (although the uptake was much better than 10)
Game developers can also do more interesting things with the hardware to create effects that simply arent possible with a high level API like DX.
Posts: 1890