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AMD's Mantle and Star Citizen ?

Rori_Beedm

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When AMD and DICE revealed Mantle on their livestream, I could only think of one thing.....Will Star Citizen be able to use Mantle? Is there a way for CIG to license it and incorporate it with the Cryengine or is it a Frostbite 3 exclusive deal?

The reason I wonder is because from what was said about Mantle, it unlocks almost full access to the CPU and GPU. Currently, PC games are limited by DirectX and therefore can't use the full potential of high end hardware. Mantle is supposed to remove those blocks, so it would seem to live up to Chris Roberts' desire to "Push PC gaming hardware to the limit".
  • Dasun_Flint

    Posts: 28

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    I think it's the same like OpenGL and linux support - it is needed to be implemented by Crytek. They know their engine, how the functions and technologies are implemented and how she works. If RSI has access to the engine code, it would took some months only to understand how the engine works and during a half to a year to implement Mantle support (new technology and missing experience with it),

    And Crytek is, as I remember, supported by Nvidia. So it's unknown, if they will implement Mantle support.
  • Revanchist

    Posts: 1053

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    I think it's the same like OpenGL and linux support - it is needed to be implemented by Crytek. They know their engine, how the functions and technologies are implemented and how she works. If RSI has access to the engine code, it would took some months only to understand how the engine works and during a half to a year to implement Mantle support (new technology and missing experience with it),

    And Crytek is, as I remember, supported by Nvidia. So it's unknown, if they will implement Mantle support.

    Actually Crytek used to be supported by nVidia but starting Crysis 3, AMD started to favor it. So Crytek in essence has improvements from both companies.
    We pledged to support the development and vision Chris Roberts and CIG has in mind. We were never given any entitlement of what we want CIG and Chris Roberts to do. Therefore, don't think your opinion(s) are to be complied by CIG.
  • Revanchist

    Posts: 1053

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    I think it's the same like OpenGL and linux support - it is needed to be implemented by Crytek. They know their engine, how the functions and technologies are implemented and how she works. If RSI has access to the engine code, it would took some months only to understand how the engine works and during a half to a year to implement Mantle support (new technology and missing experience with it),

    And Crytek is, as I remember, supported by Nvidia. So it's unknown, if they will implement Mantle support.

    Actually Crytek used to be supported by nVidia but starting Crysis 3, AMD started to favor it. So Crytek in essence has improvements from both companies.
    We pledged to support the development and vision Chris Roberts and CIG has in mind. We were never given any entitlement of what we want CIG and Chris Roberts to do. Therefore, don't think your opinion(s) are to be complied by CIG.
  • StoneEvo

    Posts: 413

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    AMD sure did make it sound like a conversion from DX 11 support to Mantle support was very easy.
    So who knows ... Crytek is dedicated to performance, as is Chris Roberts, I guess they will come up with something - if not at release, than later.


    EDIT: Since Mantle is only intended for use with the GCN architecture (right?) games/engines need to support both DX and Mantle - I hope I got that part of the presentation right.
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  • Korai

    Vice Admiral

    Posts: 2418

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    Vice Admiral

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    Mantle is not tied to any specific game developer, they were just giving some examples of who they are already working closely with.

    Mantle can make 9 times more unique draw calls per second than any current API by reducing CPU overhead. "Like getting 2018 hardware today" as Raja said.

    I cannot wait to see it in action with Battlefield 4 once support for Mantle is rolled out to the game in December ^^
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  • Reach

    Posts: 1647

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    It'd be nice to know what will be involved in going from Directx11 to Mantle support, from the presentation yesterday, it did seem that a lot of the work will be done for the developers by the tools that AMD would be providing so would be relatively quick and painless...probably more time ensuring it's moved over to Mantle correctly than actually moving it over...but i'm a relative layperson when it comes to programming.

    It's also not a Dice/EA exclusive either as Mantle appears to be the standard for the PS4 and the Xbox One, so there might a few console developers that will be using it when they port their games over to PC.
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  • Nanoha

    Posts: 336

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    My guess is no. Mantl sounds awesome and it's even getting me to think about getting one of their cards next (long time NVIDIA fan). I doubt we Will see SC using it though for reasons others have said; this is something that CryEngine would need to implement. If they are going to implement it, it would be in CryEngine 4 (SC stuck with 3).
  • Tomcsi

    Posts: 137

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    My guess is no. Mantl sounds awesome and it's even getting me to think about getting one of their cards next (long time NVIDIA fan). I doubt we Will see SC using it though for reasons others have said; this is something that CryEngine would need to implement. If they are going to implement it, it would be in CryEngine 4 (SC stuck with 3).

    No they are not stuck with the Cryengine 3
    CR mentioned it in an interview on Gamescom that they are just making the transition to the new cryengine.
    Also Crytek said they are not giving numbers to the engine, just developing it with new stuff every time.

    Played Wing commander from the first one...

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  • Cpt_ACE

    Posts: 4686

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    Frostbite will have Mantle support.

    Every non EA devhouse which uses any of the available engines will really push very hard for them to support Mantle. A) for staying competitive with EAs games. B) Because they have been loathing DX limitation for years and years...

    All Engines including CryEngine supporting Mantle is a given imo. What's left is when will CryEngine have support ready. Considering they were by far the slowest to incorporate Oculus Rift support. That is the one thing worrying me a bit...
  • Marty

    Posts: 145

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    Frostbite will have Mantle support.
    All Engines including CryEngine supporting Mantle is a given imo. What's left is when will CryEngine have support ready. Considering they were by far the slowest to incorporate Oculus Rift support. That is the one thing worrying me a bit...

    I'm not worried about that. Crytek is developing for Xbox One and PS4 (which means they use a low level API just like Mantle, may not be called that on the consoles, but they are GCN as well).
    And I'm sure AMD did not go and create an entirely new API for the PC but rather intends to port over as much of this API from the consoles to the PC.

    There is a good article about this on Anandtech:
    http://anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn
  • Seggface

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    And I'm sure AMD did not go and create an entirely new API for the PC but rather intends to port over as much of this API from the consoles to the PC.

    This is what basic NV fanboys can't see, when they talk about an NV "Mantle". AMD gives the HW -which is a GCN PC- and SW tools for both consoles. So, there is a great potential to make an extended console API for PC, so the devs can make their games with little work for 3 machines with similar performance and tech lvl -if u have GCN -. The DX line will be the traditional PC port, and no one will support NV's "Mantle".

    The problem with DX is simple, it's a Microsoft stuff for PC "gaming". They won't kill their XBOX gaming platform, the big money bag.

    Here comes in the SteamOS. First, it's free, second, a professional PC gaming company is behind it, so not another shitty, home made Linux distro, and of course it's completely independent from MS. With Mantle and AMD, it will be an interesting, new, high performance PC platform and maybe even more. You can say it's not right or fair, but at least it's something big enough to worth to try and call it a mayor change, because the DX line -which is PC gaming for a long time- is a dead end.

    "Chris Roberts creates worlds..."
  • SoulStealer

    Posts: 564

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    AMD, those sly little bastards, IMHO has a great opportunity now. It will be interesting to see what Mantle does in BF4, it is wise to reserve judgment till then.

    P.S. Their audio tech is interesting too. Sound was lagging behind for a looong time
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  • VincentJ

    Posts: 102

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    I didn't put this in hardware because it isn't!

    I've been reading bout Mantle:

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-could-amd-mantle-revolutionise-pc-gaming

    It sounds like it could give a significant advantage for those owners of compatible AMD cards.

    I note Chris was at an AMD release, or something? Today was it?

    Does anyone know if Chris is planning to engage AMD and get Mantle optimization in the game?

    This will seriously affect hardware choices for those making SC computers :)

    Cheers

    Vince

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  • Spellsword

    Posts: 421

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    It would be nice if SC could make use of optimizations like this.
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  • Tuk

    Posts: 2369

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    Doesn't look so.

    944x531.jpg
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  • Vascotia

    Posts: 696

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    Implementations like this is something Crytek needs to do, CIG doesn't have the resources / programmers to handle this. We're not going to see Mantle support for CRYENGINE anytime soon. But i do hope Crytek is taking notice on this. Mantle will be a serious threat to DirectX.
  • Captain_Harlock

    Moderator

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    I didn't put this in hardware because it isn't!


    Mod Note 1: It is a feature from a hardware, you are still discussing about a hardware provided feature. It belongs in the Hardware section.

    Mod Note 2: Duplicated topics merged re: applying mantle to SC
  • gorg_graggel

    Posts: 1043

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    Implementations like this is something Crytek needs to do, CIG doesn't have the resources / programmers to handle this. We're not going to see Mantle support for CRYENGINE anytime soon. But i do hope Crytek is taking notice on this. Mantle will be a serious threat to DirectX.

    i'm rather sure that this is not news to crytek (crysis3 = amd gaming evolved programme, the new ruby demo is based on cryengine) and IF they decided to put it in, they are already working on it. :)
  • realspacehobo

    Posts: 901

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    I am hearing that Mantle would be a replacement for Directx, that went over my head when I first heard about Mantle. Don't think I will miss DirectX.
  • Judicator

    Posts: 151

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    My guess is no. Mantl sounds awesome and it's even getting me to think about getting one of their cards next (long time NVIDIA fan). I doubt we Will see SC using it though for reasons others have said; this is something that CryEngine would need to implement. If they are going to implement it, it would be in CryEngine 4 (SC stuck with 3).

    No they are not stuck with the Cryengine 3
    CR mentioned it in an interview on Gamescom that they are just making the transition to the new cryengine.

    Also Crytek said they are not giving numbers to the engine, just developing it with new stuff every time.

    Link?
    Thanks.
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  • TheTempest

    Posts: 711

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    My guess is no. Mantl sounds awesome and it's even getting me to think about getting one of their cards next (long time NVIDIA fan). I doubt we Will see SC using it though for reasons others have said; this is something that CryEngine would need to implement. If they are going to implement it, it would be in CryEngine 4 (SC stuck with 3).

    No they are not stuck with the Cryengine 3
    CR mentioned it in an interview on Gamescom that they are just making the transition to the new cryengine.

    Also Crytek said they are not giving numbers to the engine, just developing it with new stuff every time.

    Link?
    Thanks.
    well i dont have a link for u but its true. cryengine3 is now only cryengine with regular smaller updates. so when the cryengine gets some new features the developer can choose to use them even AFTER the game is allrdy finished. this way the game gets never outdated on the visuell side even month or years after launch.

    how about u google this stuff urself? its not like everyone is ur personal information search manager. PISM.
  • Catamount

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    Generally, the onus is on the claimant to demonstrate what they've said, not on everyone else around them. A simple request for a link is hardly unreasonable.

    http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/08/22/new-cryengine-drops-number-for-fourth-iteration-shows-appropriately-spangly-video/

    http://www.shacknews.com/article/80813/cryengine-drops-numbered-versions-gets-fancy-tech-demo

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryengine_3#CryEngine_.284th_Generation.29_2

    Sure enough, it looks like SC is moving over to the latest iteration of the engine, not that that's surprising. It'll be interesting to see what graphical enhancements that will open up for the game.
  • Crystal

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    Microsoft shot themselves in the feet several times recently, the first was with their mediocre Windows 8 O/S and the second was the announcement that no new versions of DirectX will be provided for Windows 7. So unless they back track on that at the very least, I think they are screwed where it comes to the gaming industry. Unless they adapt quickly to support the changing times.

    This is not the first time this has happened either. It happened with Windows XP too. They discontinued support for latter versions of DirectX under that O/S as well. It has been their marketing ploy for years, it is a way to keep perpetual lions share of market. Industry giants / main two hardware vendors and developers primarily / have made huge investments in DirectX development in the past but this is primarily down to Microsoft's aggressive marketing campaign with DirectX, and at the same time their manipulation and bad mouthing of other solutions .. namely OpenGL. They even at one point threatened to remove OpenGL support from Vista, but eventually backtracked on that one... but by then damage was done.

    I reckon people are sick fed up with MS. The sooner DirectX is killed off the better because it has done little great for the gaming industry in recent years, if anything it has held it back over the last few years, even playing catch up in at times in terms of performance with OpenGL. I will say that it benefited hardware vendors in earlier years though, so it was never all bad of course.

    With Steam announcing a Linux O/S and now this from AMD, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a calculated move by industry giants on MS at a time of weakness. Perhaps more though they are trying to escape from the limitations of DirectX, primarily due to the constraints Microsoft cause, not because it's a higher level API. So if Mantle is as open as purported, it could be a key for multiple hardware vendors. I wish though that it were to the future benefit of OpenGL, I can't see at the moment.

  • Catamount

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    I would argue that DirectX, at least from 10 onward, did do one useful thing, and that was to standardize. Prior to MS's efforts there, features in GPUs and games could be easily scattered, and not always overlap. Games and GPUs were both moving targets, trying to hit each other, so you ended up with features that a handful of games would support, that a handful of GPUs would support, with only the very occasional end user having both (Ati Truform comes to mind, as does Physx for a more recent example). When all games and GPUs both had to do was shoot for a DirecX iteration, then as long as the GPU DX version >= the game DX version, there was perfect feature overlap.

    It's perhaps the only redeeming quality of an otherwise undesirable API. I'm concerned that Mantle, being AMD exclusive, is just going to re-introduce those same problems. I am excited for it; I'm just concerned about possible fallout from having a feature not supported by the largest GPU vendor out there (sans Intel).
  • Johnyboy420

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    why do you think CR has been so enthusiastic about AMD lately is cus he got too see it before us we had no idea about what AMD had in there hand too play, I know he's going too use all that tech you saw in the live stream GET over it intel/nvidia has a big wall too get over, I wonder if they saw this coming

    man i can't wait too get 2 R9 270's

    Mantle is the way too unlocking the true power, DX can go too hell
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  • SkullXbones

    Posts: 68

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    Honestly, I don't know why Cryengine wouldn't eventually support Mantle. Crytek is porting Cryengine to Linux (source below), so to me it seems like the most logical step would be to add support for this API at least for Linux if not for Windows as well. But wouldn't support for Mantle need to be decided before the final build for the engine of cryengine that is being used or could it be patched in somehow?

    geek.com/games/crytek-is-porting-cryengine-to-linux-1562557/
  • Zaelon

    Posts: 305

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    Mantle is the way too unlocking the true power, DX can go too hell

    For consoles yes since both consoles will use AMD GPUs, for the PC no.

    The problem with Mantle is it's a low-level api. That means it won't work with nvidia or intel.

    Unlike physx which only works with nvidia, it only makes the game look better you can still run the game without it. If a developer creates a game that runs with Mantle then you won't be able to run it on an nvidia gpu or with an intel. In order to be able to run it on graphics cards other than AMD the developer will have to write the game for both mantle + D3D/opengl thus taking more time and/or resources unless they do a piss poor cobbled job on the 2ndary api.

    It's like back in the day of voodoo and 3dfx glide, it was like Mantle, and while arguably better then D3D and opengl at the time, a developer had to write the game to use both glide as well as D3D and/or opengl. This meant the game either too longer to come out as they had to work on it longer, or they wrote it for one particular api and spent less time and resources on the other api which they didn't particularly wan't to support (but had to since not everyone had the same hardware) so while it ran on both it ran noticably poor on one or crashed all the time or had other problems etc compared to running it on the one it was essentially designed for so in the end glide died which was for the better.

    Mantle will be able to get more out of the GPU and it will be great "for AMD hardware" but terrible for others. For consoles this is perfect since they will both be using AMD hardware so there is no downside to Mantle, however in the PC market mantle it a bad idea as it will just increase the cost and/or time for a game to be developed or if it doesn't, will likely have quality/performance issues for those not using AMD.

    The only other option is you want nvidia and intel to die so that AMD are the only ones making GPUs and Mantle is great for PC too and that is a terrible idea.
  • SE_Apocalypse

    Posts: 2512

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    man i can't wait too get 2 R9 270's

    The R9 280x seems to be a little modified 7970. Sounds like a good deal for $299 per card, not sure if 270s are ideal for cross fire.

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  • Johnyboy420

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    Mantle is the way too unlocking the true power, DX can go too hell

    For consoles yes since both consoles will use AMD GPUs, for the PC no.

    The problem with Mantle is it's a low-level api. That means it won't work with nvidia or intel.

    Unlike physx which only works with nvidia, it only makes the game look better you can still run the game without it. If a developer creates a game that runs with Mantle then you won't be able to run it on an nvidia gpu or with an intel. In order to be able to run it on graphics cards other than AMD the developer will have to write the game for both mantle + D3D/opengl thus taking more time and/or resources unless they do a piss poor cobbled job on the 2ndary api.

    It's like back in the day of voodoo and 3dfx glide, it was like Mantle, and while arguably better then D3D and opengl at the time, a developer had to write the game to use both glide as well as D3D and/or opengl. This meant the game either too longer to come out as they had to work on it longer, or they wrote it for one particular api and spent less time and resources on the other api which they didn't particularly wan't to support (but had to since not everyone had the same hardware) so while it ran on both it ran noticably poor on one or crashed all the time or had other problems etc compared to running it on the one it was essentially designed for so in the end glide died which was for the better.

    Mantle will be able to get more out of the GPU and it will be great "for AMD hardware" but terrible for others. For consoles this is perfect since they will both be using AMD hardware so there is no downside to Mantle, however in the PC market mantle it a bad idea as it will just increase the cost and/or time for a game to be developed or if it doesn't, will likely have quality/performance issues for those not using AMD.

    The only other option is you want nvidia and intel to die so that AMD are the only ones making GPUs and Mantle is great for PC too and that is a terrible idea.

    who care if intel/nvidia can use it, thats there prob not mine if i want 9x the vid card with software all take it,
    if microsoft trys and stop it all just get a better OS,
    Im sick of M$ holding PC gaming back.
    Sick move AMD now i know why i love your chips

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  • lezantas26

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    so either :

    1. AMD will have the monopoly and use it to pay their debts and then get rich

    OR

    2. NV also releases their own API , and PC games development time increases . though game devs would probably prefer to just make the game once , so they just go with AMD solution , so again we go back to the 1...

    call me NV fanboy , but i dont really like it ...
    now if there were a hope NV/Intel also use the Mantle , that would be awesome . Competition AND new API ? it is really welcomed in PC gaming ;)
    But right now i am concerned about what is going to happen :S
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