Ascension through the ranks of combat.

Rioht

Posts: 21

Posted:
Posted: -
Hi guys,

First off I apologize if this is a currently planned feature, or if this has already been proposed/discussed.

As a long time competitive FPS player, I am very intrigued by the opportunities presented by Star Citizen's professions.

Specifically, the necessity for large ships to hire NPC's or PC's to run the various tasks within their ship (engineering, defenses etc) will present opportunities for players with the highest knowledge/skill in those areas to be sought after. A player who knows an Idris inside and out, knows the best way to deal with various situations and can respond to threats in a quick way will be invaluable to a ship/fleet/corporation.

Similarly, a player who is proficient in armed combat, or flight combat would also be invaluable to protect the ship and its assets. This is where I would like to come in. I am not interested in running a large ship, I do not have the time/resources to take on such an large endeavor. What I can offer though is a well trained gun and fighter pilot to protect a large ship.

What I am proposing, or endorsing in the case this has already been proposed, is a ranking system achieved through Star Marine and Arena Commander. This ranking system would have to be built upon your ability to win matches and benefit your team, not just a result of grinding out ranks. Similar to Star Craft or Counter Strike ranking where you need to win/perform against similarly ranked players to move up in the rankings.

As you rank up, jobs would become available to you. Large NPC ships might need protection while shipping cargo, or large player Corporations might need talented players to gear up for a corporation vs corporation war. The higher ranked you are, the more sought after you would become.

This provides Star Marine and Area commander (or their final in-game equivalents) with additional layers of reward and incentive. A player always has a reason to continue to play to increase their rank, reputation and open up financial rewards in exchange for their hard earned proficiency.
  • CaptMal

    Posts: 11946

    Posted:
    Posted:
    I don't necessarily like this idea. CIG has talked in the past about maybe having "certificates" that you can take to show your knowledge in a particular area.
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  • Donaghue

    Posts: 1869

    Posted:
    Posted:
    It only makes sense to me if the reputation gain from AC and SM was very limited. As has often been pointed out, these two games are not representative of gameplay in the PU. AC should be considered a training tool at best - a highly-realistic simulator, but of limited value beyond that.
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  • Rioht

    Posts: 21

    Posted:
    Posted:
    [hide]

    I don't necessarily like this idea. CIG has talked in the past about maybe having "certificates" that you can take to show your knowledge in a particular area.

    Certificates make sense for non-combat roles. Engineering etc where it is knowledge based.

    Taking a tutorial/certification on how guns work does not tell a corporation of ship owner how well you could perform with those guns.
  • Rioht

    Posts: 21

    Posted:
    Posted:
    [hide]

    It only makes sense to me if the reputation gain from AC and SM was very limited. As has often been pointed out, these two games are not representative of gameplay in the PU. AC should be considered a training tool at best - a highly-realistic simulator, but of limited value beyond that.

    Agreed, and obviously AC/SM are not the final tools that will be available. As more game modes are released, and we know in greater detail what will be available in the PU this feature would have to change.

    To clarify, I am not suggesting that AC/SM specifically are used as the tools, but some form of combat trials or test of abilities within the PU could be used to determine your proficiency in combat and utilize a ranking system to say "I am better than XX% of players in personal combat, or in flight combat, and thats why I am worth XX amount to protect your crew/ship".
  • CaptMal

    Posts: 11946

    Posted:
    Posted:
    [hide]

    [hide]

    I don't necessarily like this idea. CIG has talked in the past about maybe having "certificates" that you can take to show your knowledge in a particular area.

    Certificates make sense for non-combat roles. Engineering etc where it is knowledge based.

    Taking a tutorial/certification on how guns work does not tell a corporation of ship owner how well you could perform with those guns.
    The certificate wouldn't be "I've taken this course". It would be "I've shown that I'm *this* proficient with XYZ".
    MRU1IFH.png
         I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you.    grafton is MVP!!!
  • Donaghue

    Posts: 1869

    Posted:
    Posted:
    [hide]

    Agreed, and obviously AC/SM are not the final tools that will be available. As more game modes are released, and we know in greater detail what will be available in the PU this feature would have to change.

    To clarify, I am not suggesting that AC/SM specifically are used as the tools, but some form of combat trials or test of abilities within the PU could be used to determine your proficiency in combat and utilize a ranking system to say "I am better than XX% of players in personal combat, or in flight combat, and thats why I am worth XX amount to protect your crew/ship".

    Gotcha. In that case, I agree with Mal that it's sounding more like the proposed cert system (proposed here in the Game Ideas forum, that is) all the time. I could see it working.
    60VFQlg.png
  • Rioht

    Posts: 21

    Posted:
    Posted:
    [hide]

    [hide]

    [hide]

    I don't necessarily like this idea. CIG has talked in the past about maybe having "certificates" that you can take to show your knowledge in a particular area.

    Certificates make sense for non-combat roles. Engineering etc where it is knowledge based.

    Taking a tutorial/certification on how guns work does not tell a corporation of ship owner how well you could perform with those guns.
    The certificate wouldn't be "I've taken this course". It would be "I've shown that I'm *this* proficient with XYZ".
    But how is that proficiency determined? Is it, "I can beat X waves of NPC's"?

    I still feel that it would be more telling to say "I an the XX ranked pilot in 1v1 scenarios." Or "I am the XX ranked person in XX the combat circuit". Those are more relevant to real PU situations.
  • Rioht

    Posts: 21

    Posted:
    Posted:
    [hide]

    [hide]

    Agreed, and obviously AC/SM are not the final tools that will be available. As more game modes are released, and we know in greater detail what will be available in the PU this feature would have to change.

    To clarify, I am not suggesting that AC/SM specifically are used as the tools, but some form of combat trials or test of abilities within the PU could be used to determine your proficiency in combat and utilize a ranking system to say "I am better than XX% of players in personal combat, or in flight combat, and thats why I am worth XX amount to protect your crew/ship".

    Gotcha. In that case, I agree with Mal that it's sounding more like the proposed cert system (proposed here in the Game Ideas forum, that is) all the time. I could see it working.
    You could be right. It all depends how the certification for combat professions work. I will do some more reading into certs and see if I can wrap my head around it.

    Thank you both for the info.
  • Uber-Goober

    Posts: 2991

    Posted:
    Posted:
    There is not supposed to be any ranking in this game. Thank god! If the current way the leaderboard is being handled is any indication of how they rank things then making it part of the game would be terrible.

    Rank will be your reputation. If you are good at getting your job done then the word will get around that you can be relied on.
    Suck at doing your job, and that will get around also.
    That's how you can demand a higher price for your services. Or have to settle for less paying jobs.
    In life ve get to soon Old't,
    Unt to late schmart.
  • Jestunhi

    Posts: 13744

    Posted:
    Posted:
    [hide]

    [hide]

    [hide]

    [hide]

    I don't necessarily like this idea. CIG has talked in the past about maybe having "certificates" that you can take to show your knowledge in a particular area.

    Certificates make sense for non-combat roles. Engineering etc where it is knowledge based.

    Taking a tutorial/certification on how guns work does not tell a corporation of ship owner how well you could perform with those guns.
    The certificate wouldn't be "I've taken this course". It would be "I've shown that I'm *this* proficient with XYZ".
    But how is that proficiency determined? Is it, "I can beat X waves of NPC's"?

    I still feel that it would be more telling to say "I an the XX ranked pilot in 1v1 scenarios." Or "I am the XX ranked person in XX the combat circuit". Those are more relevant to real PU situations.
    No, they are relevant to AC ( or dueling in the PU). Does it tell you how likely an escort will be to remain with the ship he should be guarding when his own ship and life are risked? Does it tell you the likelihood of him logging off before the mission is complete? Does it tell you how good he is at prioritizing the correct targets? Does it tell you that they are trustworthy and won't turn on you in deep space?

    If someone asked to join my crew and said that I'd likely avoid hiring him. The fact that they think it's relevant tells me all I need to know about them!


    I'll stick to the planned rating system where people who have previously worked with him provide ratings (and hopefully comments).
    CIG Calix Reneau:
    I think we could experiment with making decoupled aim and flight more available, but I don't expect that we'll be removing coupled aim+flight. I don't agree that any "arcadish FPS feel" is intrinsic to the control setup
  • Rioht

    Posts: 21

    Posted:
    Posted:
    [hide]

    [hide]

    [hide]

    [hide]

    [hide]

    I don't necessarily like this idea. CIG has talked in the past about maybe having "certificates" that you can take to show your knowledge in a particular area.

    Certificates make sense for non-combat roles. Engineering etc where it is knowledge based.

    Taking a tutorial/certification on how guns work does not tell a corporation of ship owner how well you could perform with those guns.
    The certificate wouldn't be "I've taken this course". It would be "I've shown that I'm *this* proficient with XYZ".
    But how is that proficiency determined? Is it, "I can beat X waves of NPC's"?

    I still feel that it would be more telling to say "I an the XX ranked pilot in 1v1 scenarios." Or "I am the XX ranked person in XX the combat circuit". Those are more relevant to real PU situations.
    No, they are relevant to AC ( or dueling in the PU). Does it tell you how likely an escort will be to remain with the ship he should be guarding when his own ship and life are risked? Does it tell you the likelihood of him logging off before the mission is complete? Does it tell you how good he is at prioritizing the correct targets? Does it tell you that they are trustworthy and won't turn on you in deep space?

    If someone asked to join my crew and said that I'd likely avoid hiring him. The fact that they think it's relevant tells me all I need to know about them!


    I'll stick to the planned rating system where people who have previously worked with him provide ratings (and hopefully comments).
    Thanks for the info. I actually like the rating idea, clearly this has been aired out more than I had thought.
  • grafton

    Posts: 24419

    Posted:
    Posted:
    Welcome to the madness! CIG have specifically said AC and SM can be used to train for missions in the PU. Whether doing so will impart a certification that can appear on our job "applications" for wont of a better term, remains to be seen. Since those games-within-the-game were originally *supposed* to utilize precisely the same mechanics as the PU, it was reasonable to assume that experience gained by playing the games would directly applicable to playing the PU, unlike real-world simulation, which always falls short of the real thing (death being unavoidable IRL).

    FPS simulators confirmed:
    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2013554/#Comment_2013554

    capture the Idris:

    GEOFF ASKS: WILL WE BE ABLE TO LAND AND MAKE THE TRANSITION FROM DOGFIGHTING TO FPS IN A SINGLE MATCH BEFORE THE PU RELEASES? OR RATHER, ARE THERE GOING TO BE ANY MAPS WHERE BOTH FLYING AND RUNNING ABOUT ARE IMPORTANT?
    Yes. Before the persistent universe releases, we will be having maps that include both ground-based first person shooter combat as well as ships and traversing from one to the other to accomplish the goals of
    that map. One of the things we’ve talked about historically in the roadmap is that we’re going to be doing this initial FPS release to kind of get the mechanics nailed down and kind of work a little bit in a bubble so that we test it all out, we get it working, and then from there we’re going to be releasing multicrew ships some time after the social module. Once we have multicrew ships and FPS combat working, we’re going to move to bring the two together and in what we’ve always called Arena Commander V3.0 which is “Capture the Idris”. So, we had the idea of having a giant Idris as one of the main objectives of the map and two teams of fighters and multicrew ships that would be able to fight over it, take control of it, and pilot it. That is what we’re building towards and all of that will be before the full version of the persistent universe has been released.

    from: http://www.scqa.info/transcript/?episode=10PRO-006

    CIG have also said there will be licenses that represent our accomplishments with specific game mechanics - Licenses for mastering skills:

    daDuke Fische: Will there be a way to improve efficiencies with equipment, jobs, tasks, and general actions within the game? In essence, will there be a leveling-up system where we can improve our ability to mine resources, haggle prices, fast travel, detect other ships, etc through man hours (experience) to unlock new equipment, areas, and quests/missions?

    So that's kind of a two part answer because this is not a traditional MMO, there is no leveling it's not like you start at level one and you'll work your way up to level 20. So a lot of it is to do with your skill set, but then again equipment and things that you've got help you in doing these jobs and tasks, so I think doing things like being a better miner will involve going mining, doing it, learning the skills so to speak yourself, actually doing it, not learning it as in I've gone from level 1 miner to level 5 miner, and having the right equipment, so you'll have to buy the equipment, upgrade your equipment, you know maybe go to some specialty place that does 10% better or 20% better equipment, so it's a combination of your actual player skills, you as a person , and then also the equipment you're using will be our version of levelingup, there will be some stuff where perhaps, you wouldn't be able to operate certain items or equipment without the right license, you would have to maybe do something like a driving test. So in today's world you can't just drive an 18 wheeler truck, you have to have a license to do that. So we may have something like that. But in general, the leveling tasks will be a more real world based. IE based on your skill and the equipment you're using, not based on an arbitrary roleplaying level. So I hope that makes sense.

    from: http://www.scqa.info/transcript/?episode=10FTC-006

    I would expect to see such concepts applied to FPS combat as well as non-combat skills. Personally, I would like it to be something like this citizen-proposal -
    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/61462/suggestion-a-credentialing-system-licensespermits-medals-certificates-qualifications-ect

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    In all the wide 'verse, there's none like me.
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