MULTI-REGION Servers thanks, BUT...

ZeroK

Posts: 523

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Edited: by ZeroK
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I was very happy to see a more detail explanation of how Star Citizen will work on a global scale, THANK YOU.

HOWEVER, It's still unclear, with the proposed design how matchmaking will work and impact the player experience with this model.

Specifically, how will matchmaking take place due to REGION MARKERS of players, and how will these region markers restrict player's COOP interaction with other players playing in different regions with different region markers??

TLDR: Will all players -no matter the physical location- be able to play together without matchmaking restrictions (due to those physical locations)? Or will there be cases those matchmaking restrictions impact how players can play together within Star Citizen? If so, what are those restrictions?

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This is especially important with ORGS in Star Citizen that are very global in nature of membership. Meaning, players from all over the world members of the same ORG and wanting to play together.

Consider the following:

• 3 Players Region Market being from OCEANIA
• 6 Players Region Market being from NA
• 4 Enemy players Region Market being from EUR

Current ORG-Mates from the NA Region currently in a battle with enemies from the EUR Region.

QUESTIONS:

1.) Will the game allow the 3 OCEANIA players to see and battle the same enemies as what the 6 NA Regions players see?

2.) Will there be cases that the 3 OCEANIA players will not be able to see the same group of enemies that their ORG-Mates(6 US) are seeing due to the matching system of the game based on REGION MARKERS?

3.) How will the game overcome the latency between Region Servers that will still exist, even though it's on the cloud?
Is it because AWS has dedicated FIBRE lines between their data centers globally with private dedicated connections, reducing hop-points and thus latency for all players playing across AWS no matter where the servers are located?
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  • Data

    Posts: 5516

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    You might be overthinking it a little.

    I'm not a dev but I can try to answer your questions if that's any consolation.


    1.) Will the game allow the 3 OCEANIA players to see and battle the same enemies as what the 6 NA Regions players see?

    It wouldn't be a very good instancing architecture if it didn't. The Oceania players might be at a disadvantage if their instance is hosted on an NA region cluster, but those are the risks you take. :P


    2.) Will there be cases that the 3 OCEANIA players will not be able to see the same group of enemies that their ORG-Mates(6 US) are seeing due to the matching system of the game based on REGION MARKERS?

    Again, that's bad design. If other markers (same org, friends list, etc) have allowed a group of players to play together in an instance they will all experience the same instance. There's a hierarchy -- only CIG could tell you exactly what it is, but some markers would be weighted heavier than others.

    But what would be the point of instance-based matchmaking if some players in the instance see/experience different things?


    3.) How will the game overcome the latency between Region Servers that will still exist, even though it's on the cloud?
    Is it because AWS has dedicated FIBRE lines between their data centers globally with private dedicated connections, reducing hop-points and thus latency for all players playing across AWS no matter where the servers are located?

    There's no magic cure for latency. You're asking if CIG has fixed that pesky problem with the speed of light and the answer is a resounding NO. Fiber, copper, or microwaves... if players are playing on extra-regional servers/clusters they must do so understanding that it may cause additional latency which could have a negative impact on gameplay.

    The fiber does help though. :D
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  • Dfox

    Posts: 11602

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    Edited: by Dfox
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    You might be overthinking it a little.



    There's no magic cure for latency. You're asking if CIG has fixed that pesky problem with the speed of light and the answer is a resounding NO. Fiber, copper, or microwaves... if players are playing on extra-regional servers/clusters they must do so understanding that it may cause additional latency which could have a negative impact on gameplay.

    The fiber does help though. :D

    Actually, the fiber in and of itself doesn't help latency. A reduction in hops would though.


    Fiber has much better bandwidth, but the actual transmission speed of a signal in copper is a little faster than fiber. You'll see much incorrect info on this from fiber manufacturers though :)

    You're statement is fundamentally correct though. There's no cure for physics :)




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  • Somanuse

    Posts: 2517

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    I wouldn't really worry about this until CIG tells us to worry.
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  • Full-Frontal-Yeti

    Posts: 10600

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    Edited: by Full-Frontal-Yeti
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    @ZeroK

    To the best of my knowledge we'll all be passing data to the same single world server (a math on sim of the game world/econ), but the matching system and local area servers is specifically about dealing with latency issues for FPS real time games.

    in the moment local space servers for players to be on are just dealing in their in the moment actions. they report the data here up to the world server for what all is happening in the world that has any effects.

    However the matching will assume to keep players on the game area servers that are in the player's IRL local area.
    This means by default, yes you will mainly just be interacting with players who are also using that IRL local area server due to latency issues.

    In a real time FPS game you do not want to have a huge latency discrepancy between players.
    If well have 300+ pings that actually not that bad, the real issues arise when players have too much difference between their pings.

    However the game is not making anyone have to have a reasonable ping if they do not want to.
    But exactly to what extent we do not know.
    Only that CIG have assured us that if you got world wide friends you can always tell the game you want to be on the servers with your friends no matter how bad the high latency may make the play experience.
    But their answers were in relation to specifically asking about playing with your buds, and they were not asked if w could just say, put me on the servers in X region regardless of what our actual local region is.
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  • ZeroK

    Posts: 523

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    @ZeroK

    To the best of my knowledge we'll all be passing data to the same single world server (a math on sim of the game world/econ), but the matching system and local area servers is specifically about dealing with latency issues for FPS real time games.

    in the moment local space servers for players to be on are just dealing in their in the moment actions. they report the data here up to the world server for what all is happening in the world that has any effects.

    However the matching will assume to keep players on the game area servers that are in the player's IRL local area.
    This means by default, yes you will mainly just be interacting with players who are also using that IRL local area server due to latency issues.

    In a real time FPS game you do not want to have a huge latency discrepancy between players.
    If well have 300+ pings that actually not that bad, the real issues arise when players have too much difference between their pings.

    However the game is not making anyone have to have a reasonable ping if they do not want to.
    But exactly to what extent we do not know.
    Only that CIG have assured us that if you got world wide friends you can always tell the game you want to be on the servers with your friends no matter how bad the high latency may make the play experience.
    But their answers were in relation to specifically asking about playing with your buds, and they were not asked if w could just say, put me on the servers in X region regardless of what our actual local region is.

    For the FPS portion of the game like Star Marine and Arena Commander, I can see what you're saying and agree to some extent.
    It's important to have matches with as many players around the same latency as possible to even out the experience.
    No one likes rubber-banding and other crap when in an FPS match. I get this on Star Wars Battlefront PS4 when I choose a region outside of my area for matchups (because the time of day I play where I am, there are no matches going on around me to support up to 40 player maps).
    However, when it comes to the PU, which is in effect, a giant MMO, it's a different story.

    Some MMOs allow for what's called 'Skill Queueing', which allows to address to some degree the timing issues involved in kicking off skills due to latency.

    MMOs typically simply are not FPS in nature, and as such haven't been designed around the whole 'twitch' concept of fast reaction minute reaction time actions.

    SO, my example is mainly for the PU/MMO matching side of things in support of playing with any friends(your own ORG) you want, no matter where you are.

    It's important to know, in my example scenario above, what is possible, and what is not, coming from an 'official' source from CIG who can explain it, as well as the 'official' vision of what they're trying to accomplish. What is the feasibility and what are any backup plans if any. Not really unfair to ask from backers, who are in effect, the sponsors of the game.

    SO I hope we can get a more definitive clarity from them on this...
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  • Logical_Chimp

    Posts: 21957

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    I could be wrong, but the 'region markers' will affect where you get placed - in combination with other factors.

    However, once you've been assigned, the region marker *should not* impact what you can see / interact with.
    I'm not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
  • Starlin

    Posts: 13761

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    You might be overthinking it a little.



    There's no magic cure for latency. You're asking if CIG has fixed that pesky problem with the speed of light and the answer is a resounding NO. Fiber, copper, or microwaves... if players are playing on extra-regional servers/clusters they must do so understanding that it may cause additional latency which could have a negative impact on gameplay.

    The fiber does help though. :D

    Actually, the fiber in and of itself doesn't help latency. A reduction in hops would though.


    Fiber has much better bandwidth, but the actual transmission speed of a signal in copper is a little faster than fiber. You'll see much incorrect info on this from fiber manufacturers though :)

    You're statement is fundamentally correct though. There's no cure for physics :)




    Copper might be faster, but it has nowhere near the range. I'm compelled to point this out, because people start jumping to conclusions very easily here.
    "The ship stats page is always wrong. If for some reason it is right, then it will warp reality until it is wrong again." -Manic
    "An object at rest, cannot be stopped!" - The Evil Midnight Bomber (What Bombs at Midnight!)
  • Full-Frontal-Yeti

    Posts: 10600

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    Edited: by Full-Frontal-Yeti
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    @ZeroK

    You are mixing up a bit two very different kinds of game engines and technology.

    The examples you use are from a game engine running not a real time FPS game.
    Some games that appear to the end user as a real time game are actually not that under the hood for the game engine/mechanics.
    This game engine really is running an actual FPS AC style game, but as a mega sized game world with an insane number of players in it. Compared to the normal smaller one off arena styles we're used to from such game engines.

    To the best of my knowledge we've not seen any significant game company really try to do this kind of play aciton sense WWII online in 2001, which was a bit too ambitious for the hardware and network bandwidth availability of the day.

    But really all that stuff from what we're used to in common MMOs today does not apply here.
    Totally different kinds of game engines leveraging totally different sets of mechanics.

    So even though the game is, one single world, and all the players world wide acting in it. An MMO as it were.
    The nature of the engine and mechanics of play mean that we are basically playing TF2 on a map millions of times larger with a number of players thousands of times more than 24 at once.

    So we all get input on what we did. like i was here and took some minerals, and sold them there.
    But we may not all really be able to just always be with each other on the same servers when we happen to be in the same area of the game world.

    It is a challenging conundrum for how to design all that to play out well.
    But then if no one was willing to take up such challenges we'd not see any evolution in online gaming options.

    UPDATE:
    just watched latest AtV and they did use the language to say 'players can set their region."
    So it sounds like the system will assume to provide for an ideal play situation for the server w connect to. But we can choose to say what is ideal for us persoanlly, if that is being on servers in a different region.
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  • DoubleDHZ

    Posts: 15

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    The whole point of regional servers is to keep the ping low.
    Allowing cross-region matches would mean, that one side has to play on foreign servers. That would lead the whole concept ad absurdum.

    So, in short, if you're logged in into region X, you should only see players from region X and matchmaking should only pick players from region X.
    Everything else will just be sub par.

    And I'm pretty sure, that there will be enough players in every region to keep matchmaking queues short & fast.
  • Samplerico

    Posts: 881

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    Dude we have region servers, is great ive been waiting this for a while now, jsut enjoy. I don't really need to play with any trumptard over the sea. I'm happy, period.
  • Logical_Chimp

    Posts: 21957

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    The whole point of regional servers is to keep the ping low.
    Allowing cross-region matches would mean, that one side has to play on foreign servers. That would lead the whole concept ad absurdum.

    So, in short, if you're logged in into region X, you should only see players from region X and matchmaking should only pick players from region X.
    Everything else will just be sub par.

    And I'm pretty sure, that there will be enough players in every region to keep matchmaking queues short & fast.

    Incorrect.

    Regional servers allow for much faster client-server communication, which has a massive impact on how quickly the server can perform 'server validation' (ie did you hit the target or not).

    Given that CR has always said that everyone around the world would be able to play together, they are highly unlikely to lock you to a region *and stop you seeing other people from other regions*.

    It's far more likely that you'll connect to your local server (e.g. US, for the sake of the discussion), and I'll connect to my local server (in the EU). All actions I perform will be tested / validated by my local server - and the results sent to me *and to your US server* where they will then be streamed to you. Likewise, all your actions will be tested by your server, and the results streamed to mine.

    This means that the ping difference won't matter - because I'll be playing against the version of you that my local server knows about (at my local ping), and you'll be playing against the version of me that *your* local server knows about.

    As such, it doesn't matter where *any* of your opponents are located - because what you'd actually be playing against is their 'ghost' hosted by your local server - and thus, the only significant ping would be your own.

    There is at least one edge case that needs to be covered - and that's the case where we both register a 'kill' at the same time, on our respective local servers, and then then transmit the data to each other, and the two 'kills' cross in the middle. In this instance, I personally think it would be fair that both 'die' - because it would be the equivalent of both of us firing at the same time, and the bullets crossing in the middle... just because you killed me should mean that - provided I fired *before your shot actually killed me* - my shots should then be 'plucked out of the air'.

    There are other edge cases, but this isn't the place to be descending into that level of detail (not least because I'm already at the limits of my knowledge - whilst I've done multi-server communication stuff before, it was a long time ago and it's not something I'm particularly experienced with).
    I'm not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.
  • BanditSE1977

    Posts: 119

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    @ZeroK


    just watched latest AtV and they did use the language to say 'players can set their region."
    So it sounds like the system will assume to provide for an ideal play situation for the server w connect to. But we can choose to say what is ideal for us persoanlly, if that is being on servers in a different region.

    Can't remember if it was an old 10FTC or an an interview,but Chris said that it would take your preferences first over closest server if they want to play with friends/Orgs.
  • nrfarf

    Posts: 314

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    Edited: by nrfarf
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    regions are seperated, that kinda is the whole purpose

    if you join EU, you will be able to interact with other people on EU
    if you join USA, you will be able to interact with other people on USA
    etc
  • sailor67

    Posts: 12190

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    You might be overthinking it a little.



    There's no magic cure for latency. You're asking if CIG has fixed that pesky problem with the speed of light and the answer is a resounding NO. Fiber, copper, or microwaves... if players are playing on extra-regional servers/clusters they must do so understanding that it may cause additional latency which could have a negative impact on gameplay.

    The fiber does help though. :D

    Actually, the fiber in and of itself doesn't help latency. A reduction in hops would though.


    Fiber has much better bandwidth, but the actual transmission speed of a signal in copper is a little faster than fiber. You'll see much incorrect info on this from fiber manufacturers though :)

    You're statement is fundamentally correct though. There's no cure for physics :)




    How about no. Worked ultra long haul Telcom for a number of years, SMF fiber is faster OOO switching is the difference. You stay at C the whole time.
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  • Foodoo

    Posts: 79

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    @Logical_Chimp everything you said was correct except.... about people dieing at the "same time" because of latency checks. The packets are time stamped when authenticating so when they are run through the iPredictor(HSR) it will validate the packets and which ever player "died first" will be dead and there wont be a cross kill where both players die due to ping discrepancies.

    Visually you see this from when players are shooting behind you visually but still hitting you is because of these rewind packet checks.
  • BLUE_S1X

    Posts: 580

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    What I got from the interview in ATV is that the region servers will have dedicated connections to a central "server" so that everybody will still be part of the same universe without having to hop through lots of less reliable servers along the way to the game server.
  • Starlin

    Posts: 13761

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    What I got from the interview in ATV is that the region servers will have dedicated connections to a central "server" so that everybody will still be part of the same universe without having to hop through lots of less reliable servers along the way to the game server.

    Thats not really what that meant. The way the infrastructure is right now, there is only 1 instance of each core service, since its (currently) a requirement for their authoritative hierarchy. You can have a near infinite number of combat instances, but they all have to talk one central database to avoid dupped or conflicting data giving the wrong values to different User services. Otherwise you could have one data base saying you have 10,000 UEC, but another says you have 500 UEC because it doesn't know about the last 2 hours of game play.

    Their next step in infrastructure upgrades is allowing several instances of a Core service to run (one in each region), and enable them to efficiently, and accurately synchronize data across all regions/zones that are requesting it. This is incredibly hard to do, and is the reason Clouds are even able to function as Single logical, multi-point presence.


    The back end VPCs they were talking about are also complicated in practice; but their gains come from lower routing/switching overhead, since the end points are predictable. Its the same underlying concept that enables VPNs, except more controlled, and with a stronger performance focus.
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  • Schutze

    Posts: 275

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    This for sure will kill most mega orgs as people from different regions will not be able to play together. Like oceania and eu matching will be near impossible. Applies to other time regions combinations too...
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  • TheLensMan

    Posts: 256

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    took my org and me 3 houers before we could join same sever..(8players PU) dosent seam to reserve spots for party any more...the new party system is lagging to say it nice.. some mmo..hope they fix this soon
    See You In Space CowBoy.

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