Are refunds for our packages/ships from CIG now okay to be requested?

Loonie

Posts: 2777

Posted:
Edited: by Boraxx
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Mod Boraxx edit: Although the introduction provides some nice background info on why this thread got started, pointing to the material at hand doesn't influence the question raised by the OP. Hence all reference made are removed, if only to prevent further derailing

All this time, I have been under the impression that CIG's 'no refunds' policy has always been simply because of the fact, that they likely could not manage to track down every single pledge. Or perhaps other, moreso legally-associated reasons, which would be perfectly understandable from my point of view. But with this latest action on their part, I now see that it is, in fact, perfectly within both, the capability as well as the realm of the law, for CIG to fully refund any backer they should so choose (even should the backer in question not deign to wish so, apparently).

Now before a similar kind of miscommunication happens as it did in the case of the example I provided up above, let me be clear by saying that at this time I am not yet asking for a refund. However, due to the recent flare-ups and discontent amongst many Star Citizens, I feel it would certainly be in all our best interests to find out, whether or not we have the option to request (and this time also receive, since this latest case proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that CIG is more than capable of this) a refund, should we ever wish to do so in the future. At the very least, it would offer CIG a way of saying to those that are discontent: "If you do not like our policies or the way we do things, you are always free to stop causing mayhem within our community and request a refund and we shall provide it to you." In that manner said people will also (incidentally) have their backer status on the forums removed and be, thus, removed from a solid portion of the RSI forums discussion (as well as they should, since their money has been refunded and they no longer have a stake in this project anymore).

So - what do the rest of you think?
CIG refunds
  1. Would you like there to be a publically available refund process now, given this latest development?1173 votes
      Yes
      25.15%
    1. No
      74.85%
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  • crispydragon

    Posts: 13768

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    #rekt

    it also appears this applies only to original kickstarter backers that pledged on the kickstarter website
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  • Tanchyon

    Posts: 1498

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    Why shouldn't there be a refund option to backers? Steam offers refunds to anyone that asks. Unless they don't want to nullify the benefits they receive from impulse buyers regret.
  • Kaedan

    Posts: 14848

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    The only people CIG are required to refund IF the project cannot be completed are original kickstarter backers:

    Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

    Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.


    However, again that is only if the project cannot be completed.

    Sounds like they gave a refund to this guy to shut him up because he's an obnoxious ***. He even admits to being a troll of his own volition.
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  • Loonie

    Posts: 2777

    Posted:
    Edited: by Loonie
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    #rekt

    it also appears this applies only to original kickstarter backers that pledged on the kickstarter website

    I am seriously curious if this is the case, that it would apply only to original backers, or perhaps not.
    [hide]

    Realistically we're just shy of 3 years of development into Star Citizen. If at this point you haven't decided it's for you or not that's your own fault. You can't wait out a full year after buying a new TV to see if you like it before you decide to return it to a major retailer why should games be any different?

    Because the video games industry is not the same as the TV production industry (especially not now when it is completely digital on the part of the user experience) and in my OP the precedent to do this has been proven to be well within the capability of CIG to exact.
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    Why shouldn't there be a refund option to backers? Steam offers refunds to anyone that asks. Unless they don't want to nullify the benefits they receive from impulse buyers regret.

    Exactly. I mean, up until this point I was just genuinely under the impression that there was some legal clause or simply not within CIG's capability to do this, but with the example I listed in the OP it seems clear that's not the case.
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  • crispydragon

    Posts: 13768

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    Edited: by crispydragon
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    the E-mail is from kickstarter itself as per the terms of kickstarter..CIG made their own rules after switching to their own crowdfunding system

    they are only obligated to give money back to kickstarter backers after a certain amount of time
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  • Loonie

    Posts: 2777

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    the E-mail is from kickstarter itself as per the terms of kickstarter..CIG made their own rules after switching to their own crowdfunding system

    Right, which is why it's more than possible for this to be the case.

    But still, even if that is the case, should those rules not be revised? I mean...what CIG is saying then is: "Only ORIGINAL backers can get refunds, but all the rest of the plebs that pledged afterwards - read: something like 80% of all pledgers - cannot." How would that be even remotely fair, if what I've noted just happened in my OP is well within their capability?
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  • Trollslayer

    Posts: 4796

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    If it's in the TOS then they don't have to give refunds, but they can choose to if they want. I don't see the issue.
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  • Starbug01

    Posts: 1117

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    If it's in the TOS then they don't have to give refunds, but they can choose to if they want. I don't see the issue.

    I agree with this, and in reply to the thread title... Yes it is okay to request a refund on your pledge/ship, but they are not obliged to give it you.
  • Loonie

    Posts: 2777

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    Edited: by Loonie
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    If it's in the TOS then they don't have to give refunds, but they can choose to if they want. I don't see the issue.

    The issue is the number of people, that have been very much so discontent on these forums for the past month or so, some of them backers in excess of 5000$, wanting a refund and to simply leave, but not managing to get one, while someone as disreputable as the person noted within the OP happens to get it within the blink of an eye, simply because CIG finds it moreso convenient for them.

    When, ultimately, CIG would find it even moreso convenient to have a public refund policy on the front page, that is visible and made clear to all, and towards which they could point at any time with any backer, that sowed discontent within this community, and which would then also give said refunds to them in a timely manner, so that they would no longer hassle the moderation teams and CIG in general by making alt accounts ect. and posting negative blog pieces, like that of the person within the OP.

    It's a simple matter of practicality, really. CIG would benefit from a much greater harmony within their community, if they had this kind of policy publically available IMO, as would any backer that demanded a refund and got it, as would all the other backers that stuck with their pledges and also wanted to see these forums be filled with less negativity.
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  • Boraxx

    Moderator

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    Kindly keep the thread on topic, ie this is not about DS, several derails were pruned

    Purple replies are Moderator replies. click for forum rules
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  • Sutuul

    Posts: 3643

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    This refund was processed through Kickstarter and was made under their Terms of Service. From what I'm to understand it doesn't apply to people who pledged directly to CIG through the RSI website after the kickstarter ended. I suspect this was more of a response to DS's recent escapades but maybe you should ask CS instead of us.
  • Grimlog

    Posts: 8179

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    Edited: by Grimlog
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    I doubt they will start any refund policy. They need to know what budget they got to work with after all. I have heard about them doing it in some cases that doesn't boil down to "I changed my mind" or "I feel you guys are not living up to [insert reason]". In the case of the example in the OP I think they just didn't want to waste time on the guy.
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  • Journeyman

    Posts: 808

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    I'm not sure, but I think refunds are currently handled on a case-by-case basis.

    I personally see no need for the policy to change. I encourage all backers to be patient and understanding that things will take the time they take. And even if the final product ends up different from what you expected, it can still be a balanced, fun and rewarding experience by its own right.
  • Rilzi

    Posts: 948

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    Its an interesting question. On the one hand, in the case of the 'former citizen', the refund seemed more a gtfo by CIG. Ive just read his latest article and wow, shots fired. Not surprised CIG would be happy to give him his money back.

    As for the rest of us? Well, refunding one malcontent $250 is a lot different to what would happen if 50, 000 citizens decided to get refunds. Would that happen? Who knows, but once you open the floodgates you can't really close them again. You guys have seen what these forums are like week to week when things blow up - adding the ability to refund?

    I guess the ultimate question is - how much faith does CIG have in their game? Do they believe that they can they convince backers to stay even if they have the ability to get a refund?

    Though if there is some refund system put into place,it would require some limits similar to gog and steam - though as SC is in extremely early access I'm not sure how it could work.
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  • Sixth-Venom

    Posts: 358

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    Its an interesting question. On the one hand, in the case of the 'former citizen', the refund seemed more a gtfo by CIG. Ive just read his latest article and wow, shots fired. Not surprised CIG would be happy to give him his money back.

    As for the rest of us? Well, refunding one malcontent $250 is a lot different to what would happen if 50, 000 citizens decided to get refunds. Would that happen? Who knows, but once you open the floodgates you can't really close them again. You guys have seen what these forums are like week to week when things blow up - adding the ability to refund?

    I guess the ultimate question is - how much faith does CIG have in their game? Do they believe that they can they convince backers to stay even if they have the ability to get a refund?

    Though if there is some refund system put into place,it would require some limits similar to gog and steam - though as SC is in extremely early access I'm not sure how it could work.

    If cig did a refund policy, imo theres enough people that would dip CIg into the red. I think most people think theres like 85 mill stacked somewhere and not realize they used a big chunk of it. I think it was returned so they dont have to deal with him sueing CIG (you can take anyone to court in usa doesnt mean ull win but it would be annoying).

  • turrican187

    Posts: 63

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    Basically I remember CR stating that "he does not want money from people that are not behind this project" (though the TOS stating otherwise) but I can't seem to find this quote anymore :(
  • Karazantor

    Posts: 3554

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    Seems the mods are keeping a very close eye on this thread, for obvious reasons I guess.

    No, I don't believe there should be an easy refund request policy. There are a lot of warnings about alpha/beta status of the game and that things will change etc. If they can't complete goals as described during kickstarter, then fair enough, the rules are very clear about that.

    This was probably a one off case to prevent totally unnecessary trouble that can be easily avoided.
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  • Ravenhurst

    Posts: 2973

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    It´s funny because even the old estimated delivery (Nov 2014) is:
    A) not that long ago, not even remotely enough time has passed to complain at Kickstarter
    B) that date has long been revised and 90% of the budget came long afterwards, hundreds of thousands of backers agreeing to the revised timelines and game specs of estimated delivery somewhere by end 2016/early 2017.
    C) With hitting all the stretch goals during KS, it should be PERFECTLY clear, the whole deal would take longer to make. A first grader should be able to comprehend that more budget equals more features equals more dev time.

    At worst, some Kickstarter backers could complain if the est. delivery of their Kickstarter pledge is more than 1 year late (in Nov. 2015) but many Kickstarter deadlines of other projects were broken too, there are so many cases where the delivery happened long after a year (*cough* Elite *cough*) - and nothing bad happened. Frontier even cancelled the basic game description of being an offline game, cancelled alleged launch features left and right, and nothing happened to them. So the only thing that would be at stake for CIG in a year or so, would be 2M of Kickstarter funds, if there is really nothing substantial out by July 2016.

    KS would look into it and maybe CIG would lose a small part of the 2M raised on Kickstarter to whoever wants a refund (maybe 10% at most) - so yeah, CIG could lose 200.000$ in about a year, if some KS backers are not happy at that point. That´s about the worst case that could happen. Nothing to lose any sleep over.
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  • Nelson71

    Posts: 2609

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    I am pretty sure this is a special situation. I don't see "getting my money back" as an option. It would be nice though.
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  • Shantyman

    Posts: 207

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    Edited: by Shantyman
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    [hide]


    All this time, I have been under the impression that CIG's 'no refunds' policy has always been simply because of the fact, that they likely could not manage to track down every single pledge. Or perhaps other, moreso legally-associated reasons, which would be perfectly understandable from my point of view. But with this latest action on their part, I now see that it is, in fact, perfectly within both, the capability as well as the realm of the law, for CIG to fully refund any backer they should so choose (even should the backer in question not deign to wish so, apparently).

    I think the reason why there is a general "no refund policy" (with exceptions only being made in individual, special cases) is to prevent some kind of snowball effect of backers pulling out their money from the project.

    I think everybody can agree to the fact that SC's scope grew with the amount of money raised. The original game that was proposed on KS has hardly anything to do with the project that CIG is working on nowadays. That means the money that has been collected up to this point is probably spent. Not in a sense that CIG has spent it already, but in a sense that they know they will have used it up by the time the game is "finished" (finished in a sense that they delivered everything that was advertised through KS and stretch goals).
    CIG has emphasized many times, that they're developing SC's features in paralell: While one team works on SQ42, at the same time another team works on the FPS component. Same with all the other parts like the social module, the starmap... (you get the idea).

    This means that the scope of the game cannot be adjusted backwards, because most of the assets that were promised through stretch goals are probably already in developement. This could mean that a large enough number of backers pulling their money back from the project could potentially kill the whole development. And in my opinion, it really doesn't take that much to cause such a scenario:

    Let's say the most vocal joystick users get so fed up over the current state of controller balance that they want to pull their money from the project. If they get a refund, I'm willing to bet a lot that more people will bail out of the project because of it - Human nature is gregarious after all. Before we know it, we'll have a snowball effect of people leaving the project because they're afraid of the project failing.

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  • sunrodent

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    this wasn't a refund... This was a repossession. i used to love saying that in my bar, We reserve the right to refuse service to any customer. ByeBye Now.

    Although in a bar a lot of guys wouldn't want to give up their beer so i would accidentally knock the table hard enough to spill it and then give them their money back.
  • Caelum_nld

    Posts: 1920

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    If it's in the TOS then they don't have to give refunds, but they can choose to if they want. I don't see the issue.

    The issue is the number of people, that have been very much so discontent on these forums for the past month or so, some of them backers in excess of 5000$, wanting a refund and to simply leave, but not managing to get one, while someone as disreputable as the person noted within the OP happens to get it within the blink of an eye, simply because CIG finds it moreso convenient for them.

    When, ultimately, CIG would find it even moreso convenient to have a public refund policy on the front page, that is visible and made clear to all, and towards which they could point at any time with any backer, that sowed discontent within this community, and which would then also give said refunds to them in a timely manner, so that they would no longer hassle the moderation teams and CIG in general by making alt accounts ect. and posting negative blog pieces, like that of the person within the OP.

    It's a simple matter of practicality, really. CIG would benefit from a much greater harmony within their community, if they had this kind of policy publically available IMO, as would any backer that demanded a refund and got it, as would all the other backers that stuck with their pledges and also wanted to see these forums be filled with less negativity.
    It is very, VERY simple :) This ain't a safe deposit at your local bank. This is a business, you don't put your money in, to retake it when you so well like it. The money you put in is used in planning and has in that regard allready been used. The reason it's protected from being takrn back by everybody on a whim, is because a mass exodus from backers would destroy the project. Everything that is being developed now is done with a game that is worth 85mil in mind. I cannot wrap my mind around why you can't see that yourself. And losing $250 ain't a reason to open thegates and give millions more back. One thing doesn't give instant access to the other.

    Also, the Steam comparison makes no sence at all, because with steam you buy finished or almost finished games, where the money made ain't development money anymire. And just recently Steam gives you a refund on a game WITHIN two weeks and only if you played it LESS than two or maybe even one hour.

    Again, giving back one backer's pledge money because obvious unique standing and reasons does NOT make anyone or anything responsible for giving back everybody's pledge money.
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  • Rodney-Trotter

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    CIG are could be on very dodgy ground here in the UK not allowing Refunds. As we pay VAT and is described as a contract and is not classed as a donation or project funding.

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vatscmanual/vatsc50400.htm
    [
  • Jethro_E7

    Posts: 2561

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    [Redacted]

    I don't approve of instigators linking to this thread and using it as a call to arms.
  • shadowrunner

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    My post was purhaps not so much on topic, my apologies. They seam to have been removed.
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  • DanceTweety

    Posts: 208

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    Just now I have noticed this happening https://twitter.com/dsmart/status/620790095306584065 and I have to say that this is an interesting development, considering how staunch CIG has been thus far about 'Not being able to refund backers,' or words to that effect. Apparently, said RSI backer (or should I now say former backer) had the entirety of his money refunded by CIG, despite the fact that he never even requested that to happen, as well as his account expunged from the RSI website (though I am not entirely sure about this one, since I am not certain which account was his specifically).

    A link to his screenshot, for those who might still not believe this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4497650/star-citizen-refund.jpg

    Now, let's put aside the identity of the former citizen in question for a moment (since we all know how unproductive THAT would be), because what interests me far moreso is the following:

    All this time, I have been under the impression that CIG's 'no refunds' policy has always been simply because of the fact, that they likely could not manage to track down every single pledge. Or perhaps other, moreso legally-associated reasons, which would be perfectly understandable from my point of view. But with this latest action on their part, I now see that it is, in fact, perfectly within both, the capability as well as the realm of the law, for CIG to fully refund any backer they should so choose (even should the backer in question not deign to wish so, apparently).

    Now before a similar kind of miscommunication happens as it did in the case of the example I provided up above, let me be clear by saying that at this time I am not yet asking for a refund. However, due to the recent flare-ups and discontent amongst many Star Citizens, I feel it would certainly be in all our best interests to find out, whether or not we have the option to request (and this time also receive, since this latest case proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that CIG is more than capable of this) a refund, should we ever wish to do so in the future. At the very least, it would offer CIG a way of saying to those that are discontent: "If you do not like our policies or the way we do things, you are always free to stop causing mayhem within our community and request a refund and we shall provide it to you." In that manner said people will also (incidentally) have their backer status on the forums removed and be, thus, removed from a solid portion of the RSI forums discussion (as well as they should, since their money has been refunded and they no longer have a stake in this project anymore).

    So - what do the rest of you think?

    If you plegde you did that being sound of mind so why refund specially since the game is not yet finished.
    If they fail to make the game maybe be it does not seem that way does it.
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  • Liudeius

    Posts: 19173

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    Why shouldn't there be a refund option to backers? Steam offers refunds to anyone that asks. Unless they don't want to nullify the benefits they receive from impulse buyers regret.

    As much as I support a refund policy, it's designed for games which either don't run on your computer or you preordered but were unacceptable on launch (like the new Batman).

    Crowdfunding is different.
    A game you preorder isn't funding the game, the game is already funded. Your preorder is just paying for the product (though it is helping repay the dev costs).
    In crowdfunding, that money no longer exists. It was spent on development. Mass refunds on a crowdfunded project simply don't work, the company no longer has that money, they spent it on improving the game.

    After launch, if CIG still doesn't allow refunds, it will be yet another strike on their "worse than EA" scorecard (Who DO allow refunds), but until then, as shady as some of their practices may be, "no refunds" is excusable as a result of how crowdfunding works.
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    CIG are could be on very dodgy ground here in the UK not allowing Refunds. As we pay VAT and is described as a contract and is not classed as a donation or project funding.

    They "allow" refunds.
    In the most corporate BS way that they can to not actually allow refunds while pretending to abide by EU laws.

    You can get a refund within 14 days of purchase IF you never download anything (and live in the EU).
    The moment you download anything to check if your computer even runs it or if it's actually any good, you're screwed.
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  • Daedroth

    Posts: 16198

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    Despite my teeth-gnashing from time to time, I'm against CIG offering refunds to everyone; the simple fact is, they couldn't afford it.
  • Lonestarr

    Posts: 5667

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    [hide]



    So - what do the rest of you think?

    I think intentionally trying to get people to help generate hits for that man without mentioning who it is prior to the link is shady.

    Furthermore I see no correlation between voluntary refunds, and someone having their patches ripped off, chained to a boulder with the word shame engraved on it. Than finally spaced out the airlock.

    Frankly, I believe this self derailing OP game is bad form all together.

    redacted the thread for forum rule 3

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  • Gizimoo86

    Posts: 392

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    Write polite detailed email for any company, your chances of getting help or refund increases greatly. Always remember to thank for the good customer support, so you also leave positive feedback for the company. Basic stuff which helps in many cases when running to problems, and you can actually go back doing business with same company.
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