[Katamari / Mega Thread] Controller Implementation & Balance

sccdscv123

Posts: 5

On Probation
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Edited: by Custard
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This thread is dedicated to all those discussions on how certain controllers suck, and others rule, as well as the Mouse/Keyboard versus HOTAS, versus XBOX controller, versus anything else discussions.

Please remember: The game and its modules are still in development. Things will very likely change.
Your opinions matter to help CIG shape the controller issues the community might be facing.

When you do provide feedback, kindly provide information on the reasoning behind your opinion.
  • Capt_Space_Ghost

    Posts: 6283

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    Edited: by Capt_Space_Ghost
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    EDIT: returning to original post

    Thanks to Dr Hawk and his Citizen FM for interviewing Ben Lesnick and confirming the below.

    39:00
    Flight control -
    if you have to pick one, what past game will star citizen most resemble to in terms of flight controls?

    "

    Nothing like like Freelancer

    ...


    Wing Commander with a much deeper flight model"
    "It's a game where you need some skill to suceed, no click to win EVE or Diablo style - ie get the best thing and click to win"
    "No advantage for having lots of money." ( best pilot wins )

  • Whiplash-1

    Posts: 11425

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    Cool, glad we can finally put that argument to rest.
    It's been fun, folks. See you around the verse.
  • Icinix

    Posts: 4690

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    This is delicious.
  • Rageburst

    Posts: 731

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    It only took a kickstarter, the veterans of wing commander, an all-star team, and a huge assembly of angry sim fans without a proper AAA quality space sim for over 10 years to make this happen.

    I remember I was even excited over a game called Jumpgate Evolution, but their "improved" controls catered to the casual crowd. It was the best thing at the time, but was headed a direction that would doom the joystick crowd. Now it's a miracle we now have a game that will potentially revolutionize the space sim genre again to what it deserves.
  • Capt_Space_Ghost

    Posts: 6283

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    Now it's a miracle we now have a game that will potentially revolutionize the space sim genre again to what it deserves.

    its amazing when you think how long its been... I actually started getting a bit upset when cockpits disappeared and then when 3rd person views and mouse control schemes took over it just seemed hard to fathom that my most favourite gaming genre had packed up and left the building.

    Cannot thank the RSI team enough for going out and blazing a trail with the help of crowd funding to make this possible again !
  • Rageburst

    Posts: 731

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  • Capt_Space_Ghost

    Posts: 6283

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    btw rageburst... acknowledgement to you for raising the question for the interview.. ;)

    bleh to flight games optimised for mouse control ( and causing new players to think mouse is better... hahahaha )
  • Anishor

    Posts: 36

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    Well that's good to know.
    Xavien Del'Anishor - Commander of the 101st Bomber Group.
  • sailor67

    Posts: 12291

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    I don't know gunner positions mouse is going to be better. Flight control in a turning dog fight... joy stick.... with out a doubt
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  • NeoRacer

    Posts: 53

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    Will TRACKIR be implemented?! Because I can't fly without it now.
  • sailor67

    Posts: 12291

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    No idea. Reported controls so far have been, keyboard, mouse, Joystick and game controller
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  • Net

    Posts: 12688

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    AutomaticPython:
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    Will TRACKIR be implemented?! Because I can't fly without it now.

    Yes, it was $1.75M KS stretch goal and all KS stretch goals were unlocked at $4.5M
    fs5OSnv.png
  • Manic

    Posts: 11685

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    jjmorber:
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    I don't know gunner positions mouse is going to be better. Flight control in a turning dog fight... joy stick.... with out a doubt

    Having a maximum/delayed turning effect (after all the turret still has to mechanically move) might mitigate that mouse artificial advantage.
    Purple=Mod Else=User Grammar Risk/Reward
  • MoverMarcus

    Posts: 3600

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    AutomaticPython:
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    Will TRACKIR be implemented?! Because I can't fly without it now.

    What is TRACKIR? And what are it's benefits?

    I am Marcus and it has been 072 days since I last pledged / Video: SPACE PANTS!

    p6xhefy
  • Kiviar

    Posts: 377

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    MPaalman:
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    What is TRACKIR? And what are it's benefits?

    I think this should explain it perfectly.
    MGH1:
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    its amazing when you think how long its been... I actually started getting a bit upset when cockpits disappeared and then when 3rd person views and mouse control schemes took over it just seemed hard to fathom that my most favourite gaming genre had packed up and left the building.

    Well there are a lot of good reasons why joystick control died. Primarily due to the rise of first person shooters causing a paradigm shift in how videogames were controlled. Before games like Quake hit, everyone had a joystick hooked up to their computer, but after it, they started to become rare, and manufacturers stopped making them en masse. So games which would have been played with a joystick if players had them, were forced to scramble to find a new way of controlling, thus we get Freelancer's mouse controls and mega cheaty auto-aim.
  • Monarch_Black

    Posts: 598

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    Freelancer was the CR game I played the most and was the most recent, so it is the one I most remember and thought of. I had to go back and watch some videos of WC flight to remind myself what the difference is and it has me concerned. I am not lobbying to have anything changed, just worrying a bit about how much I'm going to enjoy it. I like having movement controls and aiming controls separate. When looking at ships I see the class 1 mount as wasted space on anything above the crappiest starter ship. I guess I considered the stationary guns in WC to be a technical limitation of the game at the time, not a design choice that was changed in Freelancer. If the gun doesn't track I don't want to use it, much like in hundreds of hours of Freelancer I never mounted a missile other than the cruise disruptor. I also don't like missiles in space. Just a personal preference.

    Things I liked about WC: flying in space shooting stuff on the most basic of joystick setups (aka, 1 joystick with a couple buttons). Things I liked about Freelancer: everything included. After going back an looking at the old WC stuff I realize how young I must have been at the time, because other than the actual gameplay of flying in space shooting things, everything else in WC is pretty cheesy and lame. All those pointless and horrible cut-scenes, ouch! I can cope with whatever the flight controls are, but I hope they don't spend piles of cash on cut-scenes and voice acting that I will either skip or curse at relentlessly if I can't. I watch movies for movies and play games to PLAY games. I don't think I could make it through an old WC game in the modern world. SWTOR wasted tons of money on things most people only watched once or never. We don't have tons of money to waste. I realize I strayed from flight mechanics, but after watching some old videos I was surprised by how idealized my memory of the games were. I'm starting to realize that I could possibly be a Freelancer fan, not a fan of all the CR games. Crap.
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  • Rageburst

    Posts: 731

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    Monarch-Black:
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    Freelancer was the CR game I played the most and was the most recent, so it is the one I most remember and thought of. I had to go back and watch some videos of WC flight to remind myself what the difference is and it has me concerned. I am not lobbying to have anything changed, just worrying a bit about how much I'm going to enjoy it. I like having movement controls and aiming controls separate. When looking at ships I see the class 1 mount as wasted space on anything above the crappiest starter ship. I guess I considered the stationary guns in WC to be a technical limitation of the game at the time, not a design choice that was changed in Freelancer. If the gun doesn't track I don't want to use it, much like in hundreds of hours of Freelancer I never mounted a missile other than the cruise disruptor. I also don't like missiles in space. Just a personal preference.

    Things I liked about WC: flying in space shooting stuff on the most basic of joystick setups (aka, 1 joystick with a couple buttons). Things I liked about Freelancer: everything included. After going back an looking at the old WC stuff I realize how young I must have been at the time, because other than the actual gameplay of flying in space shooting things, everything else in WC is pretty cheesy and lame. All those pointless and horrible cut-scenes, ouch! I can cope with whatever the flight controls are, but I hope they don't spend piles of cash on cut-scenes and voice acting that I will either skip or curse at relentlessly if I can't. I watch movies for movies and play games to PLAY games. I don't think I could make it through an old WC game in the modern world. SWTOR wasted tons of money on things most people only watched once or never. We don't have tons of money to waste. I realize I strayed from flight mechanics, but after watching some old videos I was surprised by how idealized my memory of the games were. I'm starting to realize that I could possibly be a Freelancer fan, not a fan of all the CR games. Crap.

    Well precisely as you have mentioned, this is not 1980's with full motion videos. Give it a chance. You'll find that piloting a ship is tons of fun. In Freelancer you are merely remote-controlling a ship from a following camera.
  • Kiviar

    Posts: 377

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    The reason freelancer's controls worked was because of the auto aim, take that out and it is entirely unplayable. If you don't believe me fire up a copy of x3r or later and give the game a try on mouse mode without target assist.
  • Rageburst

    Posts: 731

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    As a kid I played Freespace with just the mouse... it was pretty fun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRqn0hzoy4c

    X3 actually has freelancer mode. Target assist came from the Mk combat software, and it merely gives blip you can use to aim at.
  • Monarch_Black

    Posts: 598

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    Why do people keep assuming everyone in Freelancer used 3rd person? I never used it unless I was just looking at the pretty space. Also, it didn't auto-aim, but gave you a target to shoot at that would hit the ship if it remained on the same course. You still had to aim at the target yourself, correct for the other pilots maneuvers, and compensate for different weapon velocities if you had mixed weapons.
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  • Kiviar

    Posts: 377

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    X3 actually has freelancer mode. Target assist came from the Mk combat software, and it merely gives blip you can use to aim at.

    Hit k again, it gives you auto aim. Which ironically doesn't work with the mouse firing mode.
  • Whiplash-1

    Posts: 11425

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    Monarch-Black:
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    After going back an looking at the old WC stuff I realize how young I must have been at the time, because other than the actual gameplay of flying in space shooting things, everything else in WC is pretty cheesy and lame. All those pointless and horrible cut-scenes, ouch! I can cope with whatever the flight controls are, but I hope they don't spend piles of cash on cut-scenes and voice acting that I will either skip or curse at relentlessly if I can't. I watch movies for movies and play games to PLAY games. I don't think I could make it through an old WC game in the modern world. SWTOR wasted tons of money on things most people only watched once or never. We don't have tons of money to waste. I realize I strayed from flight mechanics, but after watching some old videos I was surprised by how idealized my memory of the games were. I'm starting to realize that I could possibly be a Freelancer fan, not a fan of all the CR games. Crap.

    Yikes...

    Respect your opinion but disagree with just about everything you said. I am playing through the old WC games again, and in my opinion they have aged beautifully. WC4 has one of the best combo's of storyline and gameplay of anything ever made, in my humble view. As for the others... here is an interesting blog about why WC2 works better holistically than many games made since then.

    http://www.alexanderfreed.com/2013/02/22/why-it-worked-wing-commander-ii/

    I realise this will not change your view on the subject. But realise that some of us come from an era where those horrible cheesy cutscenes as you call them were the pinnacle of game storytelling, and we loved every second of it.
    It's been fun, folks. See you around the verse.
  • Monarch_Black

    Posts: 598

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    I'm sure plenty liked it, that's why I said I'm not lobbying for any change or something. I want them to make the game they want. I don't really have a problem with the flying parts on the old games other than disliking stationary nose guns. I'm really thinking more of 3 and 4 for the horrible cheese factor. I didn't go back and watch the oldest games since they are running on such vastly inferior hardware and you can't tell what is intentional and what just had to be. Anyone who saw the new Star Wars movies knows that George Lucas actually makes horrible movies if he can do anything he wants. It was often the technical or budget limitations that caused him to accidentally do the perfect thing on the older ones. You would think he was a good producer/director by looking at his older movies, but you have to look at his most recent stuff to see what you are likely to get if you hired him to make a new movie -- JJ Abrams with a bigger CGI budget and less logic in the storyline.

    I think the difference in taste comes from my lack of interest in storytelling in games. For stories I like books and movies. One lets you interpret things as you see fit, the other is passive if I am in a vegetative mood. In games I look for gaming experience. In cut scenes my experience is me sitting, watching a bad version of a movie, at a speaking rate that allows for children and 2nd language speakers to keep up. Freelancer did have some unskippable cut-scenes in the storyline, but many times they just gave you the info over the radio as you flew out to the mission. At least then I have other things to do. I'm flying. I can check chat or look at my inventory. Stuff to do. Unless you are one of my top 10 or 15 authors, I'm not interested in you telling me a story. I play games for engagement. Story is a shaky thing to build a game on. Then you have to be a good author on-top of a good game designer. It could happen, but unless you are an Orson Scott Card, Bernard Cornwell or Terry Pratchett I would probably concentrate on good gameplay.

    If joystick is a must, I would personally like a left-handed joystick for movement to the left of my keyboard and a mouse on the right for aiming and ui interface. I can play drums, so I don't even care if you make pedals mandatory although I've never used them outside of a driving game, but I'll learn. I just need my mouse if I'm on a computer.
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  • Hotspur

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    I think you will find that a large portion of Chris Roberts fans are fans because of the 'cinematic gaming experience' he pioneered. Story combined with gameplay was always his focus, and that is why I'm here. Neglect one or the other and you do not have a Chris Roberts game.

    That said, much of the 'story' element will be housed in the Squadron 42 stuff, so if you really hate it then you can of course just launch into the Persistent Universe like I know many intend to.
  • Rageburst

    Posts: 731

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    No one said this is going to be an evolution of Wing Commander from the story side. Let's not detract too much from the topic, which is effectively Freelancer controls not being used. A lot of us played Freelancer including myself. We refer to control scheme as auto-aim simply because you don't need to line up the targeting reticule. Instead, you just need to put a mouse cursor where you want it to shoot. This action take a little bit of skill, but is hardly comparable to the skill needed to move the reticule itself. The mouse cursor also doubles as a piloting aid so you are aiming and piloting with amazing precision at the same time... it lessens the need of aerial maneuvers. It also has the advatange in being very friendly for an entry-level player.

    On the other hand, Wing Commander takes a great deal more skill.... It takes time to become good. The disadvantage is a more skilled player will more than likely win a duel since it's not merely point-and-click. While I'm not saying Freelancer takes no skill, WC does emphasize player skill more than who has the bigger guns. With great piloting skill this will serve you more in a game like WC than Freelancer.

    Another thing is the feeling of piloting. Using a mouse cursor to fly is not the same thing! A lot of us love piloting and can do so forever simply because it just clicks. There is something there that keeps us going back to it. It is similar to driving a car... some people can do it forever and it's just a lot of fun for some reason.
  • Bansheedragon

    Posts: 4677

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    AutomaticPython:
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    Will TRACKIR be implemented?! Because I can't fly without it now.

    Yes there will be support of trackIR.
    But would you not have the Oculus Rift instead?

    Both has been confirmed to be supported as well as a few others.
    This game will take full advantage of available hardware for PC games
    Intel Core i7-5820K, 3,3GHZ/3,6GHz Turbo, 6 Core
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  • Capt_Space_Ghost

    Posts: 6283

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    . So games which would have been played with a joystick if players had them, were forced to scramble to find a new way of controlling, thus we get Freelancer's mouse controls and mega cheaty auto-aim.

    yeah - sad, sad days they were indeed... just had publishers telling us how much better all the new stuff is and that we need to forget the old ways and games we thoroughly enjoyed..
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    Yes there will be support of trackIR.
    But would you not have the Oculus Rift instead?

    i have a wife, family and pets who wouldn't take to well to me tuning out with a pair of goggles and headphones for a few hours a night...

    Track - IR gives both the great control in game and while not sacrificing the situational awareness required in my household ;)
  • MoverMarcus

    Posts: 3600

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    I think this should explain it perfectly.

    Why thank you :-) however the reason why i'm posting this here is that I am also interested in people's experiences with this TRACKIR in this particular setting of space flightsims and how they anticipate using this feature in relation to SC

    I am Marcus and it has been 072 days since I last pledged / Video: SPACE PANTS!

    p6xhefy
  • Capt_Space_Ghost

    Posts: 6283

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    MPaalman:
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    Why thank you :-) however the reason why i'm posting this here is that I am also interested in people's experiences in this particular setting of space flightsims and how they anticipate using this feature in relation to SC

    it is probably the PERFECT genre for occulus rift excluding the fact we cant see our own hands... sitting in a seat moving your head around and pushing buttons mimicks 100% what your pilot is doing in game...

    Given that its confirmed its wing commander style controls it will be an AMAZING experience turning your head watching a fighter fly by u while you manouver into attack position.

    I'll just never be allowed to use it in my house... hhaha.. because of this Track-IR will suffice
  • Chade

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    Kinda on board with what Monarch-Black raised... while it's great that joysticks have a purpose again, I need a mouse while playing games on my PC.

    a little off topic: I am curious to see what CR comes up with in terms of cinematics
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